Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[FSTO]

Wow.

But, unlike many (most?) civilians, the moving around for most people means that it’s also a 1-income family.

Well as an NCM in the RCN you could do 25 years without leaving the coast.

 

[dimsum]

Yes. And I would like to add I continue to be underwhelmed by our post deployment leave compensation package.

Had it drastically changed (I.e. not 3-4 weeks after a 6-month tour)? Or whatever the folks in Afghanistan got.

Because I mentioned that to my allied military co-workers and they don’t have anything resembling that. I recall that the Aussies get a few days, maybe a week tops. They were shocked how much pre and post deployment leave we got, plus the fact that we have HHTs.

 

[dimsum]

Well as an NCM in the RCN you could do 25 years without leaving the coast.

Well then, not to be callous but I can see why some civilians might scoff at the argument that CAF members are underpaid.

 

[FSTO]

Well then, not to be callous but I can see why some civilians might scoff at the argument that CAF members are underpaid.

I agree with you.

But Victoria and increasingly Halifax are hellish expensive to purchase a house. So to entice those civilians to take the shilling, we'll have to have an aggressive condo building initiative to give them a place to stay and accrue the capital to move into the local housing market as a Master Killick or PO2.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Had it drastically changed (I.e. not 3-4 weeks after a 6-month tour)? Or whatever the folks in Afghanistan got.

Because I mentioned that to my allied military co-workers and they don’t have anything resembling that. I recall that the Aussies get a few days, maybe a week tops. They were shocked how much pre and post deployment leave we got, plus the fact that we have HHTs.

On the deployment I am finishing right now if you didn't take HLTA you get 11 in lieu and 7 PDL.

If you did take HLTA you get 1 in lieu and 7 PDL.

This doesn't include any shorts or annual or other forms of leave, this is directly from the CFLPM.

Well then, not to be callous but I can see why some civilians might scoff at the argument that CAF members are underpaid.

They are welcome to join up and experience our NCMs generous benefits package.

 

[dimsum]

On the deployment I am finishing right now if you didn't take HLTA you get 11 in lieu and 7 PDL.

If you did take HLTA you get 1 in lieu and 7 PDL.

This doesn't include any shorts or annual or other forms of leave, this is directly from the CFLPM.

Ok, so assuming you’re not counting weekends or Stats in that (assuming your leave doesn’t fall under a Stat) it’s 10 days with HLTA, and 22 days without HLTA (assuming said days fall over 2 weekend blocks). I deployed last in the 2017 period and our PDL was about two weeks on a 4-month deployment.

So I guess the leave entitlements changed. Thanks for the clarification.

They are welcome to join up and experience our NCMs generous benefits package.

Now, it’s been a while since I saw the civilian benefit packages but usually they don’t start with 20 days Annual leave, or (especially in the private sector) any pension at all. Or a “family doctor” (yes, huge air quotes but you’re not taking a day off work, unpaid, to wait in line at the Walk-In to hope to be seen at all, like my wife did) or dentist, which you don’t have to pay for or lose pay to go to.

Yes, it is incredibly difficult to get into some housing markets in Canada but we aren’t the only people who move for work. Also, most civilians would probably be very surprised at how much S1s make with CFHD, as stated below. I sure as hell was.

Yep and a lot of the seagoing trades are Spec 1 so an S1 (Sailor 1st Class = Cpl) is ~$80'000. That of course doesn't include Sea Pay ($267 per month minimum ~3400/year) , or your Canadian forces housing differential which tops you up to the tune of $800 per month in Victoria ($9600) or Halifax $450 per month ($5400).

All together a S1 with Spec 1 earns ~$92'800 if they are posted to ship in Victoria. And if you go on deployment well, tax free is the big money.

Hmm I think I need to redo my sales pitch to teenagers.

A better way to sales-pitch would be to break down to them what someone would make for the first few ranks, including SDA/LDA/AIRCRA and CFHD.

 

[Underway]

We are not underpaid, but we like to think we are.

I had this argument in the Wardroom back when PLD was going away. I pointed out that the person complaining was making on their own $30'000 more than the average Canadian household income before CFHD kicked in. On their own, not including a second income or sea pay. And before the 12% pay increase. If they had a hard time with housing that was a housing market problem not a CAF compensation problem. And now its an inflation problem.

That being said @Halifax Tar 's point on the "make it worth it" is well taken. If there is little to no difference for a CPO to go on deployment than to stay in Halifax than that's a problem. If there is little to no difference between a CPO compensation on deployment and their subordinates compensation then that's a problem. And there is certainly some issues with how CFHD discourages promotion (whoopie you get an extra $50 a month between MS and S1), and in some cases removes the advantages of Spec pay vs non-Spec pay.

But pay amount overall? No, for what we normally do on a day to day we're overpaid. But they don't pay us for what we do, do. They pay us for what me might have to (and sometimes) do.

 

[dimsum]

We are not underpaid, but we like to think we are.

I had this argument in the Wardroom back when PLD was going away. I pointed out that the person complaining was making on their own $30'000 more than the average Canadian household income before CFHD kicked in. On their own, not including a second income or sea pay. And before the 12% pay increase. If they had a hard time with housing that was a housing market problem not a CAF compensation problem. And now its an inflation problem.

That being said @Halifax Tar 's point on the "make it worth it" is well taken. If there is little to no difference for a CPO to go on deployment than to stay in Halifax than that's a problem. If there is little to no difference between a CPO compensation on deployment and their subordinates compensation then that's a problem. And there is certainly some issues with how CFHD discourages promotion (whoopie you get an extra $50 a month between MS and S1), and in some cases removes the advantages of Spec pay vs non-Spec pay.

But pay amount overall? No, for what we normally do on a day to day we're overpaid. But they don't pay us for what we do, do. They pay us for what me might have to (and sometimes) do.

Agreed on all points.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Now, it’s been a while since I saw the civilian benefit packages but usually they don’t start with 20 days Annual leave, or (especially in the private sector) any pension at all. Or a “family doctor” (yes, huge air quotes but you’re not taking a day off work, unpaid, to wait in line at the Walk-In to hope to be seen at all, like my wife did) or dentist, which you don’t have to pay for or lose pay to go to.

Can confirm... and, in civvie street, you can actually get fired too.

 

[dimsum]

Can confirm... and, in civvie street, you can actually get fired too.

This reminds me of another anecdote from my wife.

She’s working on contract to a CAF unit right now, and she asked me whether she was allowed to go on the unit PT because “it’s not doing work”. My first thought was “of course it was” but then realize that in the real world, PT time isn’t part of your work time.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Ok, so assuming you’re not counting weekends or Stats in that (assuming your leave doesn’t fall under a Stat) it’s 10 days with HLTA, and 22 days without HLTA (assuming said days fall over 2 weekend blocks). I deployed last in the 2017 period and our PDL was about two weeks on a 4-month deployment.

So I guess the leave entitlements changed. Thanks for the clarification.

It hasn't changed, you just aren't remembering the break down of your leave I reckon.

Pull up that leave pass and have a look at the break down for the type of leave.

Now, it’s been a while since I saw the civilian benefit packages but usually they don’t start with 20 days Annual leave, or (especially in the private sector) any pension at all. Or a “family doctor” (yes, huge air quotes but you’re not taking a day off work, unpaid, to wait in line at the Walk-In to hope to be seen at all, like my wife did) or dentist, which you don’t have to pay for or lose pay to go to.

Yes, it is incredibly difficult to get into some housing markets in Canada but we aren’t the only people who move for work. Also, most civilians would probably be very surprised at how much S1s make with CFHD, as stated below. I sure as hell was.

I would argue the cold facts run counter to you. If we offered a competitive compensation package we wouldn't have the retention problems that we do.

I'm not saying it would fix everything because we need fix a few things but it would make a difference.

We are not underpaid, but we like to think we are.

I would argue ones with 10 IPCs and wardroom messing should stay in their own lanes.

I had this argument in the Wardroom back when PLD was going away. I pointed out that the person complaining was making on their own $30'000 more than the average Canadian household income before CFHD kicked in. On their own, not including a second income or sea pay. And before the 12% pay increase. If they had a hard time with housing that was a housing market problem not a CAF compensation problem. And now its an inflation problem.

The wardroom is not the main cave or C&POs.

That being said @Halifax Tar 's point on the "make it worth it" is well taken. If there is little to no difference for a CPO to go on deployment than to stay in Halifax than that's a problem. If there is little to no difference between a CPO compensation on deployment and their subordinates compensation then that's a problem. And there is certainly some issues with how CFHD discourages promotion (whoopie you get an extra $50 a month between MS and S1), and in some cases removes the advantages of Spec pay vs non-Spec pay.

But pay amount overall? No, for what we normally do on a day to day we're overpaid. But they don't pay us for what we do, do. They pay us for what me might have to (and sometimes) do.

The CAF is bleeding C&POs. And that directly relates to compensation. And your point on CFHD is well put. I have a PO2 that's making 50$ more than a Cpl. Not worth it to them.

 

[daftandbarmy]

This reminds me of another anecdote from my wife.

She’s working on contract to a CAF unit right now, and she asked me whether she was allowed to go on the unit PT because “it’s not doing work”. My first thought was “of course it was” but then realize that in the real world, PT time isn’t part of your work time.

In my company 'eating time' is part of your work time

 

[Halifax Tar]

How many jobs require a level of physical fitness that is tested yearly?

 

[Quirky]

She’s working on contract to a CAF unit right now, and she asked me whether she was allowed to go on the unit PT because “it’s not doing work”. My first thought was “of course it was” but then realize that in the real world, PT time isn’t part of your work time

Edit: HT beat me to it.

 

[daftandbarmy]

How many jobs require a level of physical fitness that is tested yearly?

Do you mean a real PT test or the FORCE test

 

[Halifax Tar]

Do you mean a real PT test or the FORCE test

Lol no debating that point. But it's still a physical fitness test one must complete every year.

 

[SupersonicMax]

It hasn't changed, you just aren't remembering the break down of your leave I reckon.

Pull up that leave pass and have a look at the break down for the type of leave.



I would argue the cold facts run counter to you. If we offered a competitive compensation package we wouldn't have the retention problems that we do.

I'm not saying it would fix everything because we need fix a few things but it would make a difference.



I would argue ones with 10 IPCs and wardroom messing should stay in their own lanes.



The wardroom is not the main cave or C&POs.



The CAF is bleeding C&POs. And that directly relates to compensation. And your point on CFHD is well put. I have a PO2 that's making 50$ more than a Cpl. Not worth it to them.

Retention is not only a CAF problem, but a problem for many companies. People like to explore more nowadays.

I would argue the lack of purpose has a greater effect on retention than money. Money is a bandaid that has proven not to work over time if underlying issues aren’t addressed. The CAF is well compensated.

But again, if compensation is your prime motivator and you think you can do better, what is keeping you from leaving? Not suggesting you should but there has to be something that keeps you in, and I am curious as to what that is.

 

[dimsum]

It hasn't changed, you just aren't remembering the break down of your leave I reckon.

Pull up that leave pass and have a look at the break down for the type of leave.



I would argue the cold facts run counter to you. If we offered a competitive compensation package we wouldn't have the retention problems that we do.

I'm not saying it would fix everything because we need fix a few things but it would make a difference.

Will we? From my side of the fence, a lot of the retention issues stem with 4th/5th duties and not having enough people already so that the rest of us have said duties, creating a spiral effect. In some cases, crappy leadership too.

From the pilots side, many people join the CAF with the express intention of going to the airlines. That’s pretty much the unofficial reason, and it’s the same issue amongst all of our allies. Even the US military, with their GI Bill and all that, is bleeding pilots. A similar narrative can be said for ATC folks.

I would argue ones with 10 IPCs and wardroom messing should stay in their own lanes.

Yes-ish. I just took a look at the CAF pay scales and an S1 makes more than a SLt. And as far as I remember, NWO Lt(N)s were one of the few ranks that weren’t strictly time-based.

The wardroom is not the main cave or C&POs.

It isn’t, and that would tangent me to the pros and cons of strictly separating the messes in the RCN vice other services, especially when the other services also operate multi-crew vehicles (to include aircraft) where officers, senior NCMs, and junior NCMs work very closely together. The Aurora crews manage to hang out together in their off hours - or don’t. The most well-attended parts of RCAF combined messes is the all-ranks bar.

The CAF is bleeding C&POs. And that directly relates to compensation. And your point on CFHD is well put. I have a PO2 that's making 50$ more than a Cpl. Not worth it to them.

The CAF is bleeding everyone from MCpl on up for the NCMs, and Capt for the officers. But that is also a function of the (misguided) strategy that everyone will stay for 25 years, when that makes no sense - but that’s a discussion on a different thread.

How many jobs require a level of physical fitness that is tested yearly?

In that case, all unit PT should be FORCE test prep. Just circuits of the 4 stations - not volleyball or whatever else. And it has to be mandatory for all people, regardless of rank or position, from the CDS on down. Because we’re all tested on the FORCE test, and not “how well do you play volleyball”.

 

[dapaterson]

The CAF has an ab initio training problem, not a retention problem. If the employment model depends on 100% of members serving 25+ years, then that model is flawed.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Retention is not only a CAF problem, but a problem for many companies. People like to explore more nowadays.

No argument.

I would argue the lack of purpose has a greater effect on retention than money. Money is a bandaid that has proven not to work over time if underlying issues aren’t addressed. The CAF is well compensated.

Pay isn't the fix all, as I said, but I think it would help a good portion; in the NCM world.

But again, if compensation is your prime motivator and you think you can do better, what is keeping you from leaving? Not suggesting you should but there has to be something that keeps you in, and I am curious as to what that is.

You can mask your sentiment all you'd like but you've played this condescending 'if you don't like it you cand leave' card before; and its a sentiment that has played a role at getting us into the personnel position that we are in.

I'm here because I still give a shit. And I would like to maybe influence some change.