Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[RangerRay]

In my line of work, I have had plenty of rural farm kids ask about getting into my line of work. These kids are outdoorsy and like to hunt, which one would think would be the ideal demo for the army as well. But as soon as I tell them that they would have to leave town to get a post secondary diploma or degree and that they probably wouldn’t get posted to their home community when they get hired, they suddenly lose interest.

It’s not just city kids that don’t want to leave home.

 

[ytz]

possibly so but the greater issue comes under the heading of indoctrination. We have at least 20 years worth of a school system that has put down manly activities and labelled those who pursues them as Neanderthals.

I know this is a popular view. But not one of the young interns I come across (and I get a new set every 3 months) or OCdts say this is a problem. All of them cite lifestyle factors. And the problem with thinking it's indoctrination is that it leads a ton of people to ignore lifestyle. "It's that liberal indoctrination. Not my shit pay or bases in the middle of nowhere."

This idea that young people are substantially different today than the past is nonsense to me. And statistically, young people are actually becoming more conservative today. Every statistic has them drinking less, having premarital sex less, saving more money and even voting more conservatively than other cohorts at the same age. Heck, drinking is quickly becoming like smoking with the kids. A huge part of why mess culture is dying. The idea that a generation with those characteristics is fully indoctrinated into liberal hippie values is funny. I hope you realize that Instagram is not real life.

I joined a quarter century ago. I don't think I knew a single person during BOTC who was extraordinarily patriotic and Captain Canada. Everybody had other reasons. Be it adventure. Be it steady job. Family heritage. Etc. And those reasons still dominate. We're simply failing to cater to those motivations and making lots of excuses to justify our own stinginess and failures.

 

[ytz]

In my line of work, I have had plenty of rural farm kids ask about getting into my line of work. These kids are outdoorsy and like to hunt, which one would think would be the ideal demo for the army as well. But as soon as I tell them that they would have to leave town to get a post secondary diploma or degree and that they probably wouldn’t get posted to their home community when they get hired, they suddenly lose interest.

It’s not just city kids that don’t want to leave home.

People discount how much family life has changed. In families of 1-2 kids and where kids are reliant on parents into their 20s due to the cost of housing and postsecondary, the family ties are very different. Kids are much tighter with their parents. I have actually seen young single members who have moved with their parents. Something that would have been unheard of, a decade ago, unless the parent needed care.

 

[FJAG]

People discount how much family life has changed. In families of 1-2 kids and where kids are reliant on parents into their 20s due to the cost of housing and postsecondary, the family ties are very different. Kids are much tighter with their parents. I have actually seen young single members who have moved with their parents. Something that would have been unheard of, a decade ago, unless the parent needed care.

Interestingly the family model of before the end of WW2 had children stay with their family longer. Well into their twenties and early thirties before marrying and moving out. The post war years saw a change towards earlier independence - it's not hard to see why. Economic and social conditions are bringing back what existed before.

Regardless, the population shift from rural to urban is clear and undeniable. Young folks are voting with their feet and leaving for the opportunities offered in the cities. If the CAF wants to be connected to the general population then it needs to readjust itself to their lifestyle model - a job with a decent salary, opportunities for advancement, a stable job for their spouse, the ability to remain closely connected to their wider, extended family. To quote an old saying: "if the mountain won't come to Mohammed . . ."

I've proposed "urban battalions" and a hybrid unit structure that leverages full-time and part-time personnel. The argument that we don't have a training base next door just doesn't cut it anymore. We need to plan for a system that not only takes in new recruits - and does so efficiently and quickly - but also one that ensures that we do not lose our critical middle offr and NCM leadership because of lifestyle dissatisfaction. The CAF can adjust to a distributed urban battalion system and still turn out well trained units; it can't adjust to a population that finds the current mode of lifestyle inadequate and has many other options available to them.

 

[MilEME09]

Interestingly the family model of before the end of WW2 had children stay with their family longer. Well into their twenties and early thirties before marrying and moving out. The post war years saw a change towards earlier independence - it's not hard to see why. Economic and social conditions are bringing back what existed before.

Regardless, the population shift from rural to urban is clear and undeniable. Young folks are voting with their feet and leaving for the opportunities offered in the cities. If the CAF wants to be connected to the general population then it needs to readjust itself to their lifestyle model - a job with a decent salary, opportunities for advancement, a stable job for their spouse, the ability to remain closely connected to their wider, extended family. To quote an old saying: "if the mountain won't come to Mohammed . . ."

I've proposed "urban battalions" and a hybrid unit structure that leverages full-time and part-time personnel. The argument that we don't have a training base next door just doesn't cut it anymore. We need to plan for a system that not only takes in new recruits - and does so efficiently and quickly - but also one that ensures that we do not lose our critical middle offr and NCM leadership because of lifestyle dissatisfaction. The CAF can adjust to a distributed urban battalion system and still turn out well trained units; it can't adjust to a population that finds the current mode of lifestyle inadequate and has many other options available to them.

Almost as if we shouldn't of sold bases in major urban cities? One idea I threw out on here long ago to give the forces more of a presence and to revitalize reserve infrastructure is created mini reserve bases, example calgary where you have 3 (soon to be 4) buildings housing multiple units. Lets bring them all together into one large mini base. Then all your training facilities, maintenance etc are all in one large compound, units and HQ are close together, give it a gate and a sign so we have a visible presence again.

 

[QV]

I've proposed "urban battalions" and a hybrid unit structure that leverages full-time and part-time personnel. The argument that we don't have a training base next door just doesn't cut it anymore. We need to plan for a system that not only takes in new recruits - and does so efficiently and quickly - but also one that ensures that we do not lose our critical middle offr and NCM leadership because of lifestyle dissatisfaction. The CAF can adjust to a distributed urban battalion system and still turn out well trained units; it can't adjust to a population that finds the current mode of lifestyle inadequate and has many other options available to them.

I think this approach has merit. This, along with the "home guard" idea (Erik Prince in speaking about Taiwan defence) would bolster the CAF significantly and permit retention. A lot of relevant training can occur without a traditional "training area".

 

[Czech_pivo]

I think this approach has merit. This, along with the "home guard" idea (Erik Prince in speaking about Taiwan defence) would bolster the CAF significantly and permit retention. A lot of relevant training can occur without a traditional "training area".

Out of curiosity, why couldn't Borden be made into an active CAF base? Its less than 30mins from Barrie (and rapid transit into downtown Toronto and Pearson). It would definitely appeal, I'm assuming, to those younger CAF members, with and without families.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Out of curiosity, why couldn't Borden be made into an active CAF base? Its less than 30mins from Barrie (and rapid transit into downtown Toronto and Pearson). It would definitely appeal, I'm assuming, to those younger CAF members, with and without families.

And there's a huge, new, bejillion $ armoury in downtown Vancouver with about 50 Class A riflemen in it (plus Bde HQ staff & some other odds and sods).

Seaforth Highlanders of Canada Host Highland Homecoming — Seaforth Highlanders

Seaforth Highlanders of Canada Host Highland Homecoming, a Free Public Event on Saturday, September 24, 2016 to Celebrate Return to Armoury after Four Years of Renovations (Vancouver, BC) – The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada, Vancouver’s Infantry Regiment, www.seaforthhighlanders.ca ,

www.seaforthhighlanders.ca

 

[Quirky]

Out of curiosity, why couldn't Borden be made into an active CAF base?

What else would you put there though with Trenton so close?

 

[Czech_pivo]

What else would you put there though with Trenton so close?

Which is closer, Trenton to Borden or Trenton to Pet?

Was just wondering if Borden could be used/expanded as a location that is close to urban centers and might help attract people into joining/staying.

I'm just spitballing and asking questions.

 

[PrairieFella]

What else would you put there though with Trenton so close?

First battalion, RCR. Maybe B Sqn, RCD and the various supporters. Borden is the place the Armoured Corps was founded so it has a history as a manoeuvre training area. Is Borden big enough for arty ranges? Never been.

 

[ytz]

Out of curiosity, why couldn't Borden be made into an active CAF base? Its less than 30mins from Barrie (and rapid transit into downtown Toronto and Pearson). It would definitely appeal, I'm assuming, to those younger CAF members, with and without families.

To be clear. It's not just younger CAF members. A major reason why remote bases are unattractive is spousal employment and family amenities (most notably healthcare, childcare and education). And these are growing issues with an older population and older members who are more likely to be married and have kids. If your spouse has any kind of professional career, being > 2 hrs out of major cities is a problem. Remote work could have been a solution. But with the federal government insisting that even public servants be back in the office, even this path is starting to be closed off for spouses. If your kid has any kind of talent or special needs, again remote bases suck. Need childcare? Well, hope you can instantly trust your neighbour, cause they'll be on the list till Kindergarten.

On one of my courses, a classmate related a story from North Bay. Newly posted in single dad. Can't find childcare to enable shift work. CO tells his supervisor (my classmate) to order the Cpl to leave his kids with one of the spouses. This is the kind of shit that makes people leave. No amount of money is going to get me to leave my kid with somebody I don't know. My classmate refused the order and arranged a compassionate posting out. Made the rest of the crew work to cover.

But as to your bigger question of why can't Borden be an active base (instead of just training)? Mostly because of politics and the insistence that military bases be used to prop up failing rural areas. We're just reaching the logical endpoint of this ridiculous policy.

 

[PuckChaser]

The CO was at least trying to find a solution. The problem was with the career manager posting a single parent into a shift work position and not tracking a childcare space issue in the area.

 

[ytz]

The CO was at least trying to find a solution. The problem was with the career manager posting a single parent into a shift work position and not tracking a childcare space issue in the area.

This is what in flight safety is called "Normalization of deviance." Everybody else has gotten so used to these workarounds that they don't even realize it's a problem until reality smacks them in the face. That's a major contributor to why the CM didn't even imagine this to be an issue and didn't tell the member. And why the CO thought it was appropriate to make that suggestion.

There are a whole bunch of institutional problems like this that come up on literally every PD course I go on. And every single one of them comes down to generations before simply thinking all this was normal.

 

[Furniture]

The CO was at least trying to find a solution. The problem was with the career manager posting a single parent into a shift work position and not tracking a childcare space issue in the area.

Or the problem is there are too many special cases in the occupation and the CM tried to make the least bad choice.

Now the members who have their family plan sorted are doing extra, which may lead them to not wanting to stay in the CAF working to cover for others constantly.

There is no simple solution when you are dealing with shift work and relatively small dets.

 

[ytz]

Or the problem is there are too many special cases in the occupation and the CM tried to make the least bad choice.

Now the members who have their family plan sorted are doing extra, which may lead them to not wanting to stay in the CAF working to cover for others constantly.

There is no simple solution when you are dealing with shift work and relatively small dets.

I mean there is a simple solution: provide childcare. But 55 year old generals who had their spouse at home for most of their career don't understand why childcare is not optional for young families today. So they treat it as an option, and refuse to listen when this comes up at literally every townhall.

 

[ytz]

There's no mystery to most people who are in, on why we have recruiting and retention issues. Most members are pretty open about them. They are discussed at every townhall. Indicated on every survey. But instead of addressing them, there's one excuse after another. More recently, the excuse is politics......

 

[Furniture]

There's no mystery to most people who are in, on why we have recruiting and retention issues. Most members are pretty open about them. They are discussed at every townhall. Indicated on every survey. But instead of addressing them, there's one excuse after another. More recently, the excuse is politics......

There was an article posted today about the CAF not pursuing retention bonuses, but it also highlighted how the CAF gaslights about retention issues.

The CAF Chief said that people leave because of pay/benefits/CoL, but more importantly "toxic leadership". Maybe I've been in too long and am too cynical, but it seems to me the CAF is focusing on toxic leadership because it is a no-cost "plan" of action. I'm not saying there are no issues of toxic leadership, but I suspect it's less of an issue than money/CoL. That said, toxic leadership becomes a much larger issue when you're barely able to afford to pay to feed yourself/family and cover some basic entertainment costs.

 

[MilEME09]

Out of curiosity, why couldn't Borden be made into an active CAF base? Its less than 30mins from Barrie (and rapid transit into downtown Toronto and Pearson). It would definitely appeal, I'm assuming, to those younger CAF members, with and without families.

Borden is already a massive training base with 5-8k personal there throughout the year both army and airforce. It has a massive footprint, but if you started moving or standing up operational units there, it wouldn't work, already you have members living an hour or more from base due to housing costs, the training area is limited in size similar to CFB edmonton so youd need to go else where for major exercises, and the base already struggles to staff its kitchens during the summer ARes surge. youd be hard pressed to increase that year round

 

[Maxman1]

How about reopening London as a full base?