Let The Sucking Up Start- Defence Firms Converge on Ottawa

[Franko]

C17 is off another site.

The IL76 was taken in accordance to the rules. 

Regards

 

[a_majoor]

Those contractors are in for a bit of a shock when they realize the current government has only a slim minority and will have to proceed with extreme caution before purchasing coffee cup holders for the G wagons, much less a billion dollar slate of aircraft, helicopters, warships, trucks, boots, tents, barracks, modular load carrying vests.........

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Those contractors are in for a bit of a shock when they realize the current government has only a slim minority and will have to proceed with extreme caution before purchasing coffee cup holders for the G wagons, much less a billion dollar slate of aircraft, helicopters, warships, trucks, boots, tents, barracks, modular load carrying vests.........

They'll be in for a shock when they see that Bombardier gets the contracts, regardless of what is being bought. 

 

[LordOsborne]

Just throwing my 0.02 into the ring... I've read the CASR article on heavy-lift options, and the argument of the IL-76MF vs C-17 seemed to make sense to me, especially in the quantity department. I know the PM's platform was looking for "at least three" heavy-lift aircraft. Seems to me if we went with IL-76s, we'd either save a lot of money for other things, or buy more airframes for the equivalent price of 3 C-17s.

Just my take on the whole thing. I'll take cover now.

 

[Jake]

Here's a link with some nice pictures and the specifications of the C-17 http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/c-17.htm

 

[Franko]

LordOsborne,

I can tell you that, from practicle experience, the C17 can carry a lot more cargo than an IL76. Also it's alot more easier to load and unload.

Methinks it was pretty much designed by load masters.

Regards

 

[HDE]

I think the CASR bit compared the C-17 and the Antonov AN-124.

 

[aesop081]

Just throwing my 0.02 into the ring... I've read the CASR article on heavy-lift options, and the argument of the IL-76MF vs C-17 seemed to make sense to me, especially in the quantity department. I know the PM's platform was looking for "at least three" heavy-lift aircraft. Seems to me if we went with IL-76s, we'd either save a lot of money for other things, or buy more airframes for the equivalent price of 3 C-17s.

Just my take on the whole thing. I'll take cover now.

I think the CASR bit compared the C-17 and the Antonov AN-124.

CASR/DND101 have their own political axe to grind

 

[LordOsborne]

LordOsborne,

I can tell you that, from practicle experience, the C17 can carry a lot more cargo than an IL76. Also it's alot more easier to load and unload.

Methinks it was pretty much designed by load masters.

Regards

I know CASR isn't above bias, but i thought the article at least deserves some points for raising an alternative option that could (potentially) save money. I am aware that the IL-76 carries less than a C-17, but if we had more of them, say 6 IL-76s versus 3 C-17s, the combined space of 6 ILs would beat out the 3 C-17s, and it would still be cheaper to have twice as many airframes (at least, that's what i gathered from the article). I'm not saying the C-17 isn't a great aircraft; I'm sure it'd be an excellent addition to the CF and it would serve us very well. I'm simply suggesting that for the price, (CASR estimated 194 Million USD per), it might be good to at least discuss other options.

HDE, the article comparing the AN-124 is a fairly recent addition. CASR had a fairly extensive set of pages on the IL-76. 

 

[George Wallace]

I know CASR isn't above bias, but i thought the article at least deserves some points for raising an alternative option that could (potentially) save money. I am aware that the IL-76 carries less than a C-17, but if we had more of them, say 6 IL-76s versus 3 C-17s, the combined space of 6 ILs would beat out the 3 C-17s, and it would still be cheaper to have twice as many airframes (at least, that's what i gathered from the article). I'm not saying the C-17 isn't a great aircraft; I'm sure it'd be an excellent addition to the CF and it would serve us very well. I'm simply suggesting that for the price, (CASR estimated 194 Million USD per), it might be good to at least discuss other options.

I wonder how the price looks after you factor in the costs for repairs and maintainance to an older Soviet Aircraft as compared to a brand new aircraft off a US assembly line?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

groan... not ANOTHER C-17 vs Russian (anything) thread....

 

[Jones598]

My solution is as follows. Fund our own research, development, and manufactuer of Canadian designed, built and owned aircraft, and then, if we want, sell them to other militaries and reinvest the profits into our own forces. By building and developing at home we provide jobs and fuel the economy, not to mention all the other benefits to constructing our own military as opposed to peicing it together from bits and peices all flowing from the worlds lowest-bidders.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

hey Jones-

ever heard of an "iltis"?  Or "GACS with beacon on"?  Or "TCCS"?

We have been down your road to the tune of several billion bucks and 100's of 1000's of man-years wasted effort.

Let's try "off the shelf" for a while.  It can't be any worse...

 

[LordOsborne]

I wonder how the price looks after you factor in the costs for repairs and maintainance to an older Soviet Aircraft as compared to a brand new aircraft off a US assembly line?

Part of the reason CASR was looking at the IL-76 is because the Russian Air Force re-activated the production line, buying brand-new stretched IL-76s in the "MF" version instead of designing and building a completely new aircraft. The idea was to tag onto their production run.

 

[Blue Max]

Lord Osborne, I highly doubt IMHO, that the CAF would fly a Russian AC (or Chinese for that matter) with Russian avionics and motors. It has been pointed out by others on this site more in the now then I am, that a starting point for the CAF to even consider flying these Russian/Chinese airframes, would be to change most of the main componets (electrical, hydraulic, avionics, comm...) to western standards.

Do you have any idea what this re-engineering would cost?  Don't forget there are other factores such as certification... :blotto:

Meanwhile Australia has ordered four C17's last month for $1.49B-US, with the first C17 delivered in 2006 and the last one in 2008.  :

 

[LordOsborne]

Blue Max, I have read about this stigma in the West about russian / easter equipment. I know it's highly unlikely we'd use the IL-76, especially with Russian engines, given their track record. The CASR article did however briefly discuss this. this quote is from one of the pages on the article entitled "Parfectly Candid"

Aircraft can never be described as cheap.  For sake of comparison, the cost of a C-17 is in the range of US$250M. New-built IL-76MFs would likely cost one quarter as much. ( IL-76MFs were to be made in Uzbekistan. When the Russian Air Force was told that the per unit price would be US$40M, the entire factory was moved to Voronezh.) Western engines and avionics would likely raise costs by US$15M+.

From this page: http://www.sfu.ca/casr/mp-airlift-il76-2.htm

 

[KevinB]

Uhm - while NATO avionics plug and play -- you woudl have to rip the A/C down to its compontents and rebuild - and modifiy spars and other structural items to fit the different sized engines -- - then the time frame to get them inspection passed and certified -- yeah a real deal  :

C17 in KAF -- I don't have rulez 

 

[MarkOttawa]

Rubec doesn't have a clue about the subject (as usual for Canadian reporters when dealing with defence): "Paul Martin's Liberals inked a $12.2-billion deal shortly before the federal election to fast-track the  purchase of tactical choppers, fixed-wing planes and selected Hercules' new C-130J to replace Canada's older fleet."

The $12.2 billion proposal--heavy-lift helicopters (CH-47), fixed-wing SAR (should be C-27J or C-295 but Bombardier mucked that up), C-130J--was shot down by Cabinet in November.  What was approved was a $4.6 billion proposal to fast-track the selection of a tactical transport (i.e. C-130J). 
http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=89b9d214-65ff-4ab9-a881-5023d094f953
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051122/military_aircraft_051122/20051122?hub=TopStories

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Zoomie]

Sigh.. It looks like the science fiction writers at CASR/DND 101 caught another fish on their line.  It seems that anyone can publish a website today and spout ideas as if they were fact.  Russian aircraft will never be a solution for Canada's airlift needs - what guarantee will we have for parts existing in 10-30 years?  At best Russia is a faltering first world nation - we don't need those kind of problems, we have enough of our thanks...

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Zoomie, if you were selecting the mix of new transport aircraft, how would you allocate your resources?

Thanks in advance,

Matthew.