Liberal Minority Government 2021 - ????

[Furniture]

Quick question for the NDP can do no wrong crowd, how does propping up an unpopular government, to enact policies that will die before actually taking effect help the party?

$10/day daycare is dying right now, because it is under funded. Much of the LPC's planned, NDP supported, stuff is years away from impacting most Canadians. Most of it will die to a CPC government before it really takes off, so what actual benefit to the NDP is there? A "symbolic" victory reversed within months?

The NDP had a chance to step up and define themselves as the "real" party for the working class. They failed to do that, and hitched themselves to the LPC wagon. You're right in that they now have nothing to gain... but that's only because they already pissed away any real chance for lasting change they had.

 

[brihard]

Quick question for the NDP can do no wrong crowd, how does propping up an unpopular government, to enact policies that will die before actually taking effect help the party?

$10/day daycare is dying right now, because it is under funded. Much of the LPC's planned, NDP supported, stuff is years away from impacting most Canadians. Most of it will die to a CPC government before it really takes off, so what actual benefit to the NDP is there? A "symbolic" victory reversed within months?

The NDP had a chance to step up and define themselves as the "real" party for the working class. They failed to do that, and hitched themselves to the LPC wagon. You're right in that they now have nothing to gain... but that's only because they already pissed away any real chance for lasting change they had.

Who’s the ‘NDP can do no wrong’ crowd here?

 

[Furniture]

Who’s the ‘NDP can do no wrong’ crowd here?

The people making excuses for their terrible political decisions.

I don't particularly like the NDP, but even I am upset by how poorly they have managed their "perceived" power. I wanted the NDP to help crush the LPC by being smart. A smart NDP might have forced the LPC to be better... The current NDP have effectively removed themselves from the political equation, meaning the LPC is likely to continue to be dumb.

 

[brihard]

The goal of any political party is not to ‘crush’ another party, not even if that would please you. It’s generally to try to affect legislation and policy to achieve things that will maintain or increase their support, within the scope of their party’s general values. The best the NDP get from ‘crushing’ the LPC is official opposition. Remember the time they actually did that- and the CPC improved from a minority government to a majority? Cause the NDP remember.

The NDP can do all kinds of wrong. That’s doesn’t mean they aren’t engaging in a calculated strategy. They know that they hold the key to the timing of the next election, and that they have some months yet to improve their electoral position before turning it. For all their talk, they know that their greatest power comes from being depended upon by an LPC minority. That’s just cold objective reality.

 

[RangerRay]

The NDP failed to learn that many times, the smaller party that props up a minority government doesn’t get credit for moving the government their direction and usually loses its “kingmaker” position in the following election. I mean, the BC NDP did it to the Greens in BC not that long ago so I’m surprised they didn’t learn their lesson there.

 

[Remius]

The people making excuses for their terrible political decisions.

I don't particularly like the NDP, but even I am upset by how poorly they have managed their "perceived" power. I wanted the NDP to help crush the LPC by being smart. A smart NDP might have forced the LPC to be better... The current NDP have effectively removed themselves from the political equation, meaning the LPC is likely to continue to be dumb.

Sigh. No one is making excuses. People are asking HOW? WHY? WHAT ARE THEY THINKING?

Some of us have put forward reasons for how why etc. That does not mean they (the NDP) are right to do that or that they aren’t in a collision course with issues that they may pay for later.

I get that people are upset but That does not mean “making excuses”. It’s observation.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Have Carney and Freeland promised to end FPTP yet?

Thats a spinner bait to me. Lol. Damn it they always get me with electoral reform.

 

[Remius]

Thats a spinner bait to me. Lol. Damn it they always get me with electoral reform.

That could be a party thing after the leadership. Don’t take that bait.

 

[ArmyRick]

It’s generally to try to affect legislation and policy to achieve things that will maintain or increase their support,

Thats like saying when playing hockey "Lets try not to lose too badly..."

That is small thinking, which the NDP is. I will REMIND the NDP can do no wrong crowd (good term) that Jack Layton exploited Liberal weakness in 2011 and lead the party to swell up and become the official opposition. I say to the NDP, get your priorities straight. I think Jagmeet has had the lynch mob coming at him behind closed doors, his message the other day was confusing as usual but he seems to indicate end of March he will vote down the LPC.

If your not going to think strategically and go for the gold, then don't complain when your party ceases to exist in a few years. Or months.

People are asking HOW? WHY? WHAT ARE THEY THINKING?

Yes they are. LOTS of people. Democracy works with the decisions of people. And they get down right pissed when Singh flip flops and plays middle of the road. There is ZERO political value in what they are doing and it will cost them big time.

Quick question for the NDP can do no wrong crowd, how does propping up an unpopular government, to enact policies that will die before actually taking effect help the party?

Yup, very good question.

When are people here going to stop making excuses and reasons for piss poor behaviour and policies? No, I am not angry or enraged.

 

[brihard]

Thats like saying when playing hockey "Lets try not to lose too badly..."

That is small thinking, which the NDP is. I will REMIND the NDP can do no wrong crowd (good term) that Jack Layton exploited Liberal weakness in 2011 and lead the party to swell up and become the official opposition. I say to the NDP, get your priorities straight. I think Jagmeet has had the lynch mob coming at him behind closed doors, his message the other day was confusing as usual but he seems to indicate end of March he will vote down the LPC.

If your not going to think strategically and go for the gold, then don't complain when your party ceases to exist in a few years. Or months.

Shrug you’ve been ranting about this for over a year, and how Singh ‘MUST’ pull support ‘NOW!’. You even started a whole thread about it. In the meantime, I and others continued to calmly and correctly predict how it would play out.

As I already mentioned in the post your quoted, yes they became official opposition- to a CPC majority. And then reverted to the third party in the next election. What did that get them when all was said and done?

If you’re viewing Westminster politics as simplistically as a hockey game (only two sides, fixed periods, limited set of black and white rules, only one puck on the ice at a time, only one was to put a point on the board), that explains why you keep seeming to miss key considerations.

NDP have their priorities absolutely straight. Many of us just don’t like what that looks like, but that doesn’t mean we get to change the set of facts to suit our preferences.

 

[ArmyRick]

Shrug you’ve been ranting about this for over a year, and how Singh ‘MUST’ pull support ‘NOW!’.

It was true then and still is now

And then reverted to the third party in the next election.

Yup, Tom Mulcair failed to keep the party status. Trudeau pulled a wild card (with many young voters and the nostalgic Pierre Trudeau crowd, they have LOST the young crowd big time).

NDP have their priorities absolutely straight

If they can't even fund raise or form a party after next election, then NO they did not.

 

[brihard]

I’m sure they will give your opinion about their political strategy its due weight.

 

[Remius]

One’s opinion does not always equate to another’s priorities to be sure. And vice versa.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Layton had a bolder vision than his successors, and might have been capable of it whereas they were/are not. He and Harper were each manoeuvring to squeeze the LPC out and effect a permanent shift of left-Liberal voters into the NDP pool and right-Liberals into the CPC pool. An NDP capable of occasional majority government wins would have been much, much more effective than what it is now.

Nominal national social benefits programs that are simply added to the pile of other nominal programs - you can't benefit from insurance or co-payment if you can't access the service - are not much in the way of achievement. The LPC bought years of additional government cheaply.

 

[Furniture]

The goal of any political party is not to ‘crush’ another party, not even if that would please you. It’s generally to try to affect legislation and policy to achieve things that will maintain or increase their support, within the scope of their party’s general values. The best the NDP get from ‘crushing’ the LPC is official opposition. Remember the time they actually did that- and the CPC improved from a minority government to a majority? Cause the NDP remember.

You're half right.

The goal is to crush their opponents in an election, so they have the time and space to enact their policies, and get the credit for them. The NDP have been propping up an ineffective and unpopular LPC, while the LPC claim all the credit for the legislation that does become somewhat successful. If the NDP was getting credit for their efforts it would be reflected in the polls... It isn't, which means their strategy is not working, and realistically was never likely to be successful.

The NDP can do all kinds of wrong. That’s doesn’t mean they aren’t engaging in a calculated strategy. They know that they hold the key to the timing of the next election, and that they have some months yet to improve their electoral position before turning it. For all their talk, they know that their greatest power comes from being depended upon by an LPC minority. That’s just cold objective reality.

They hold the key to the next election timing, but that is not in and of itself a real strength. They have done nothing, and seem to have no capability to do anything to turn their fortunes around. They are the Euchre player holding the on-suit bower until the last round, not because it's smart to hold it that long, but simply because they know they have the trump card. Euchre, and politics, are won by playing your cards well, the NDP have consistently failed to do that.

Their greatest power has long since slipped through their fingers. They at one time might have been able to push the LPC into third place by campaigning against an extremely unpopular Trudeau, to appeal to the centre-left voters. Now they have ceded that ground to a new LPC leadership candidate, all of whom are campaigning more centre than Trudeau ever did. The NDP are a spent party clinging on to the faint hope that "events" will save them. As people around here are fond of saying; hope isn't a COA.

 

[brihard]

You're half right.

The goal is to crush their opponents in an election, so they have the time and space to enact their policies, and get the credit for them. The NDP have been propping up an ineffective and unpopular LPC, while the LPC claim all the credit for the legislation that does become somewhat successful. If the NDP was getting credit for their efforts it would be reflected in the polls... It isn't, which means their strategy is not working, and realistically was never likely to be successful.


They hold the key to the next election timing, but that is not in and of itself a real strength. They have done nothing, and seem to have no capability to do anything to turn their fortunes around. They are the Euchre player holding the on-suit bower until the last round, not because it's smart to hold it that long, but simply because they know they have the trump card. Euchre, and politics, are won by playing your cards well, the NDP have consistently failed to do that.

Their greatest power has long since slipped through their fingers. They at one time might have been able to push the LPC into third place by campaigning against an extremely unpopular Trudeau, to appeal to the centre-left voters. Now they have ceded that ground to a new LPC leadership candidate, all of whom are campaigning more centre than Trudeau ever did. The NDP are a spent party clinging on to the faint hope that "events" will save them. As people around here are fond of saying; hope isn't a COA.

The NDP are focusing on “NDP + LPC > 168”, while keeping LPC < 168. It’s pretty much that simple.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The people making excuses for their terrible political decisions.

YMMV but I hear an awful lot more typically-Orange folk in my circles talk about the NDP misplaying their hand pretty badly. True diehards more than zero, yes, but fewer & quieter than they’ve been in the past.

 

[IKnowNothing]

YMMV but I hear an awful lot more typically-Orange folk in my circles talk about the NDP misplaying their hand pretty badly. True diehards more than zero, yes, but fewer & quieter than they’ve been in the past.

Realistically their hand wasn't particularly strong once you account for ideological anchoring. The NDP isn't a big tent party with the prerogative to drift to the centre and back as needed. When JT drove left it put them in a shitty spot. IMO where Singh erred was in trying to "out left" JT on every axis. A party that held its ~2015 ground socially and environmentally instead of getting into a woke race and focused on scandic economic models, keeping their focus on the financial health of working canadians, would be polling in a very different place in my opinion

 

[Furniture]

The NDP are focusing on “NDP + LPC > 168”, while keeping LPC < 168. It’s pretty much that simple.

Fair, it's just a small minded loser mindset.

The NDP had an opportunity to be better. I'm disappointed that they failed to take that opportunity.

 

[Grimey]

You're half right.

The goal is to crush their opponents in an election, so they have the time and space to enact their policies, and get the credit for them. The NDP have been propping up an ineffective and unpopular LPC, while the LPC claim all the credit for the legislation that does become somewhat successful. If the NDP was getting credit for their efforts it would be reflected in the polls... It isn't, which means their strategy is not working, and realistically was never likely to be successful.


They hold the key to the next election timing, but that is not in and of itself a real strength. They have done nothing, and seem to have no capability to do anything to turn their fortunes around. They are the Euchre player holding the on-suit bower until the last round, not because it's smart to hold it that long, but simply because they know they have the trump card. Euchre, and politics, are won by playing your cards well, the NDP have consistently failed to do that.

Their greatest power has long since slipped through their fingers. They at one time might have been able to push the LPC into third place by campaigning against an extremely unpopular Trudeau, to appeal to the centre-left voters. Now they have ceded that ground to a new LPC leadership candidate, all of whom are campaigning more centre than Trudeau ever did. The NDP are a spent party clinging on to the faint hope that "events" will save them. As people around here are fond of saying; hope isn't a COA.

That's a perfect synopsis of current NDP fortunes and I agree on all of your points. Well done sir!
Losing Mulcair (and ascension of Singh) was likely the worst thing that's happened to them since the McLaughlin/McDonough doldrums.