So i have lurked here for a while, read some very interesting posts. and i must say, there are alot of very very intelligent ncm soldier types here. they should be putting you guys in leadership roles if they havent already, anyone think of goin officer? dont be too harsh towards me, just a question.
Lots of smart people on this board
- Thread starter Krazy-P
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Myself, personally, have never had the desire to be an officer, ever.
I feel that many of them have been catered to way to much, and by doing so, have lost their touch with the regular NCM's.
Don't get me wrong, there are some phenominal officers out there, but in my experience, those awesome officers used to be NCM's.
Alot of the people on this forum are very intelligent and I would sooner have those types of people sitting beside me on the front lines.
I feel that many of them have been catered to way to much, and by doing so, have lost their touch with the regular NCM's.
Don't get me wrong, there are some phenominal officers out there, but in my experience, those awesome officers used to be NCM's.
Alot of the people on this forum are very intelligent and I would sooner have those types of people sitting beside me on the front lines.
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yeah, sure. Last couple years of my contract, so I get a better pension. Until then, I'll keep working for a living. My Mom made me a gentleman, I don't need the Queen for it.Krazy-P said:
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NCOs (MCpl and Sgt) and WOs ARE leaders.
Are you implying that NCMs need not have intelligence to perform their function??
I do believe you have "stepped in it" - and you will probably hear from many others.
As I've had to delete far too many expletives and adjectives concerning YOUR intelligence, experience, and incredible chutzpah from this post, I will leave the rest of what I wanted to say until I've calmed down - probably tonight or tomorrow morning.
BTW - fill in your bloody profile so I can know if I'm dealing with a child (as I suspect), an inexperienced civilian, some incredibly idiotic recruit, or just an idiot. The force and tone of my eventual answer depends a LOT on who I'm talking to. I already KNOW I'm not dealing with an experienced serviceman.
Are you implying that NCMs need not have intelligence to perform their function??
I do believe you have "stepped in it" - and you will probably hear from many others.
As I've had to delete far too many expletives and adjectives concerning YOUR intelligence, experience, and incredible chutzpah from this post, I will leave the rest of what I wanted to say until I've calmed down - probably tonight or tomorrow morning.
BTW - fill in your bloody profile so I can know if I'm dealing with a child (as I suspect), an inexperienced civilian, some incredibly idiotic recruit, or just an idiot. The force and tone of my eventual answer depends a LOT on who I'm talking to. I already KNOW I'm not dealing with an experienced serviceman.
Gunnar
Army.ca Veteran
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Sorry bud...but the "smart people go to university" stuff that they tell most middle class kids so that they'll go just ain't true.
Smart people get the job done. NCM's do their job, Officers do theirs. Only difference between the two is scope of application. I have a degree, applied to be an officer...didn't make it for medical reasons, but I know I probably would have made a better NCM. If I had the choice today, I'd go NCM.
As a civvy, I'm less sensitive about your question, because I know where it comes from. However, soldiers operate based on a different set of standards than the general public (you know, the *good* standards of 50-75 years ago for the rest of us) of personal responsibility and knowing completely what you're talking about. They're a little harsh on those who don't follow those standards--they're compensating for the lack of leadership and education in THINKING in the world outside the military.
Basically I'm saying that you're being unintentionally insulting, and that if you had more experience and knowledge of the subject, you wouldn't have asked that question.
Here's an explanation of the difference between officers and NCM's I did up a while ago: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1330.0.html
Go forth and learn, and if you're gonna insult someone, at least do it when you INTEND to...not by mistake.
Smart people get the job done. NCM's do their job, Officers do theirs. Only difference between the two is scope of application. I have a degree, applied to be an officer...didn't make it for medical reasons, but I know I probably would have made a better NCM. If I had the choice today, I'd go NCM.
As a civvy, I'm less sensitive about your question, because I know where it comes from. However, soldiers operate based on a different set of standards than the general public (you know, the *good* standards of 50-75 years ago for the rest of us) of personal responsibility and knowing completely what you're talking about. They're a little harsh on those who don't follow those standards--they're compensating for the lack of leadership and education in THINKING in the world outside the military.
Basically I'm saying that you're being unintentionally insulting, and that if you had more experience and knowledge of the subject, you wouldn't have asked that question.
Here's an explanation of the difference between officers and NCM's I did up a while ago: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1330.0.html
Go forth and learn, and if you're gonna insult someone, at least do it when you INTEND to...not by mistake.
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Son,
One of my former MCpls has a Masters of Arts, is a published author and in many ways better educated than a lot of officers. He's also a heck of a sharp NCO who has mentored a lot of his peers and young officers. Does he want to become an officer? No. He enjoys what he's doing and he does it well. While he may be a more unusual case, there is one thing all good NCOs/WOs have in common - they're smart, sharp and know their jobs inside-out. A lot of them would make fine officers, and many do, but we can be thankful that they're happy to, as they're so fond of telling us officers, "work for a living" because without our fine NCO corps, the Army would be up shit-creek without a paddle.
One of my former MCpls has a Masters of Arts, is a published author and in many ways better educated than a lot of officers. He's also a heck of a sharp NCO who has mentored a lot of his peers and young officers. Does he want to become an officer? No. He enjoys what he's doing and he does it well. While he may be a more unusual case, there is one thing all good NCOs/WOs have in common - they're smart, sharp and know their jobs inside-out. A lot of them would make fine officers, and many do, but we can be thankful that they're happy to, as they're so fond of telling us officers, "work for a living" because without our fine NCO corps, the Army would be up shit-creek without a paddle.
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Those who automatically assume a "we-them" attitude between NCMs and officers within the Canadian Army of today are completely out to lunch. Both parts of the equation have their respective roles, and at the end of the day leaders at every level are required to absorb good ideas, make a sound decision, and issue direction. To assume that there is some sort of insurmountable gulf between the commissioned and non-commissioned ranks within the "pointy end" of the Canadian Army is to be sadly mistaken.
Officers and NCOs have their respective roles, and within a well-functioning unit each will know their place with capability-based respect and opportunity for input. It is very much a two-way street.
Officers and NCMs are NOT adversarial "classes" withiin the Canadian Army. They are complimentary functions which are battle-tested and historically validated. Formal education has zero to do with one's suitability for a commission. And the converse is true regarding NCMs. There is no civilian academic institution that I am aware of which teaches the theoretical and practical aspects of LEADERSHIP. And let's not fool ourselves - leadership is THE fundamental characteristic that all officers and NCOs worth their pay possess. Leadership by example, care of your subordinates, and decision-making (despite all temptations/distractions to the contrary) are the critical requirements. Nobody ever acquired those practical attributes through book-learning.
I would suggest that innate intelligence and formal academic achievement have little direct bearing on one's ability to be an effective leader as either an officer or an NCM. I know more than a few highly intelligent and educated people who could launch the next space shuttle, but couldn't hope to solve a simple tactical problem - let alone inspire subordinates to follow them into the jaws of death. Effective military leadership requires a modicum of smarts, but it does not require a rocket-scientist whose intellect is best suited to the abstract. Moreso than anything else, military leadership requires an experience-based understanding of human nature. Knowing what makes people tick on an individual and collective basis, under varying circumstances, is the fundamental requirement.
Yes, technical/tactical competence is also essential for leadership credibility and the attainment of desired effects. But at the end of the day, any monkey can learn and apply the basics. It is far better that the leader possess "cunning smarts", subsequently shaped by practical military experience. I can teach you the "book solution" to any problem. But I can't teach you how to think and adapt those solutions to variations on the theme. The tactically proficient leader must be able to anticipate, understand, adapt, and pre-emptively respond.
All of the above notwithstanding, if you lack the innate ability to "read" people and motivate them based on personal and collective interests then you cannot lead. This basic tenet applies to leadership at all levels - both officer and NCO. There is no distinction where the fundamentals are concerned, and there is no academic piece of paper which will ensure or deny your competence. The only difference between effective officers and NCOs is the level at which the fundamental leadership skills are exercised.
Officer? NCO? Both have their complimentary and essential roles to play within the military heirarchy. To presume that one is "more equal" than the other is utter bull-s*it. I've had the priviledge of serving in both capacities, and it is only the rank amateur who presumes to think that one is more important than the other. To coin a cliche, "there is no "I" in "TEAM".
Thus endeth my anti-"we/them" rant.
Mark C
Officers and NCOs have their respective roles, and within a well-functioning unit each will know their place with capability-based respect and opportunity for input. It is very much a two-way street.
Officers and NCMs are NOT adversarial "classes" withiin the Canadian Army. They are complimentary functions which are battle-tested and historically validated. Formal education has zero to do with one's suitability for a commission. And the converse is true regarding NCMs. There is no civilian academic institution that I am aware of which teaches the theoretical and practical aspects of LEADERSHIP. And let's not fool ourselves - leadership is THE fundamental characteristic that all officers and NCOs worth their pay possess. Leadership by example, care of your subordinates, and decision-making (despite all temptations/distractions to the contrary) are the critical requirements. Nobody ever acquired those practical attributes through book-learning.
I would suggest that innate intelligence and formal academic achievement have little direct bearing on one's ability to be an effective leader as either an officer or an NCM. I know more than a few highly intelligent and educated people who could launch the next space shuttle, but couldn't hope to solve a simple tactical problem - let alone inspire subordinates to follow them into the jaws of death. Effective military leadership requires a modicum of smarts, but it does not require a rocket-scientist whose intellect is best suited to the abstract. Moreso than anything else, military leadership requires an experience-based understanding of human nature. Knowing what makes people tick on an individual and collective basis, under varying circumstances, is the fundamental requirement.
Yes, technical/tactical competence is also essential for leadership credibility and the attainment of desired effects. But at the end of the day, any monkey can learn and apply the basics. It is far better that the leader possess "cunning smarts", subsequently shaped by practical military experience. I can teach you the "book solution" to any problem. But I can't teach you how to think and adapt those solutions to variations on the theme. The tactically proficient leader must be able to anticipate, understand, adapt, and pre-emptively respond.
All of the above notwithstanding, if you lack the innate ability to "read" people and motivate them based on personal and collective interests then you cannot lead. This basic tenet applies to leadership at all levels - both officer and NCO. There is no distinction where the fundamentals are concerned, and there is no academic piece of paper which will ensure or deny your competence. The only difference between effective officers and NCOs is the level at which the fundamental leadership skills are exercised.
Officer? NCO? Both have their complimentary and essential roles to play within the military heirarchy. To presume that one is "more equal" than the other is utter bull-s*it. I've had the priviledge of serving in both capacities, and it is only the rank amateur who presumes to think that one is more important than the other. To coin a cliche, "there is no "I" in "TEAM".
Thus endeth my anti-"we/them" rant.
Mark C
Retired CC
Did you take a bitter pill? Perhaps being retired has made you less tolerant of others, you seem to be lashing out all over the forum. Type, read, re-read then post.
KrazyP - A good team consists of many leaders and followers working together toward a common goal. Due to shortages within the HSS (Health Service Support) world - I am a Major HCA, my Company Sergeant-Major is an WO MSE Op, our Lt Amb Pl Comd was a MCpl Lineman, all of the subordinates are Med Techs. As has been said we all have roles and responsibilities, working as individuals we wouldn't make a very good Evacuation Company. Together the leadership team is able to draw on more than 60 years in the CF and 120 years of life experience. Would any of us choose to trade places (Maj, WO or MCpl) - No. With the summer posting season I was able to trade the Lineman for a Sgt Med Tech - does that change the CSM (MSE Op) role - you bet. Are the WO and MCpl as intelligent or as experienced as I - you bet.
Just remember a person without followers is not a leader, he/she is just a lonely, visionary.
Did you take a bitter pill? Perhaps being retired has made you less tolerant of others, you seem to be lashing out all over the forum. Type, read, re-read then post.
KrazyP - A good team consists of many leaders and followers working together toward a common goal. Due to shortages within the HSS (Health Service Support) world - I am a Major HCA, my Company Sergeant-Major is an WO MSE Op, our Lt Amb Pl Comd was a MCpl Lineman, all of the subordinates are Med Techs. As has been said we all have roles and responsibilities, working as individuals we wouldn't make a very good Evacuation Company. Together the leadership team is able to draw on more than 60 years in the CF and 120 years of life experience. Would any of us choose to trade places (Maj, WO or MCpl) - No. With the summer posting season I was able to trade the Lineman for a Sgt Med Tech - does that change the CSM (MSE Op) role - you bet. Are the WO and MCpl as intelligent or as experienced as I - you bet.
Just remember a person without followers is not a leader, he/she is just a lonely, visionary.
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Gunner98 said:
You're right. Signing off until I sort out my headspace.
I agree that most of the people here are inteligent , but I think that about most of the military. Acually I think its just because im a Conservitive that I like this site so much, outside its all liberal, this site appears to be mostly conservitive.
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CC definitely needs to calm down. :The author allready stated that he did not mean to offend anybody, so try and think of what he might have *meant* to say rather that jumping on the negative aspects of what he *might* have said to *secretly* offend you.
I don't believe he was necessarily making a reference to raw intelligence.
I *think* what he may have meant is that many members here have excellent idea of ways to better the Canadian Forces as a whole.
And from his perspective he might have meant that Officers,( by the very nature of their broader scope of command) may be better suited to influencing the nature of the army for the better.
Now before some bitter vet jumps down MY throat: Please realize that I am in no way making an anti-non-com statement. I'm just saying that there are some NCO's on this forum who might have a better chance on influencing the Army if they were commissioned.
Some Officers might make better NCO's too...
Either way. The Army requires BOTH to function properly and one is no less of a soldier than the other.
I agree... Lets do away with the US/THEM statements.
As someone allready stated: most of the good officers they knew were ex-NCO's... Well... Couldn't we use a few more good officers?
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Canadian Caesar said:
The author allready stated that he did not mean to offend anybody, so try and think of what he might have *meant* to say rather that jumping on the negative aspects of what he *might* have said to *secretly* offend you.
CC has already given his mea culpa, let it drop. This also goes for anyone else wanting to take shots. Just stick to the topic.
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recceguy said:
I Love it!!!
For those that don't know what it says..."Don't let the b***ards grind you down"
A great quote to live by!!
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As an aspiring officer currently in the DEO application process I've been following this thread with some interest.
"yeah, sure. Last couple years of my contract, so I get a better pension. Until then, I'll keep working for a living. My Mom made me a gentleman, I don't need the Queen for it."
I'm not here to pick a fight paracowboy but isn't this comment a bit unfair. This whole thread started because some young lad inadvertantly insulted NCMs/NCOs and then got jumped for his mistake. And then I see a comment like this where the insult is intentional. I'm surprised that some of the officers on this board are not at least a bit pissed about this. Even though I'm a civilian with no military experience I know a generalization when I see one. I would venture to say that there are probably alot of officers out there who do work hard for a living and who do not need the Queen to turn them into gentlemen. It makes wonder what the Officer/NCM relationship in the army is really like when I read things like this. Is it that bad? Are officers really that despised? I'm sure there are a few jerks who think that being an officer makes them "better" or of a higher standing but I'll bet there are officers out there who don't think like that at all. Anyway, I don't want to go on and on about this so I'll just leave it at that. I just found this comment a bit off colour thats all.
Mark C, I found your comments refreshing and I'm glad that someone took the time to make some constructive comments. What I find interesting though, is that the CF seems to disagree with you in that they require all officer applicants to posess a university degree. So for them, a formal academic education is a prerequisite. I'm not saying I agree with them, I'm just wondering if you've got any thoughts on why that is?
Someone once told me that in the Israeli Defence Forces, one can only become an officer if one has first served time in as an NCM. I think that says alot about what it means to be a good officer and maybe there is alot to be learned from the set up that the IDF has.
My 2.
"yeah, sure. Last couple years of my contract, so I get a better pension. Until then, I'll keep working for a living. My Mom made me a gentleman, I don't need the Queen for it."
I'm not here to pick a fight paracowboy but isn't this comment a bit unfair. This whole thread started because some young lad inadvertantly insulted NCMs/NCOs and then got jumped for his mistake. And then I see a comment like this where the insult is intentional. I'm surprised that some of the officers on this board are not at least a bit pissed about this. Even though I'm a civilian with no military experience I know a generalization when I see one. I would venture to say that there are probably alot of officers out there who do work hard for a living and who do not need the Queen to turn them into gentlemen. It makes wonder what the Officer/NCM relationship in the army is really like when I read things like this. Is it that bad? Are officers really that despised? I'm sure there are a few jerks who think that being an officer makes them "better" or of a higher standing but I'll bet there are officers out there who don't think like that at all. Anyway, I don't want to go on and on about this so I'll just leave it at that. I just found this comment a bit off colour thats all.
Mark C, I found your comments refreshing and I'm glad that someone took the time to make some constructive comments. What I find interesting though, is that the CF seems to disagree with you in that they require all officer applicants to posess a university degree. So for them, a formal academic education is a prerequisite. I'm not saying I agree with them, I'm just wondering if you've got any thoughts on why that is?
Someone once told me that in the Israeli Defence Forces, one can only become an officer if one has first served time in as an NCM. I think that says alot about what it means to be a good officer and maybe there is alot to be learned from the set up that the IDF has.
My 2.
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I would imagine a small bit of intelligence would be required to be an NCM {!}.......why spoil that by going officer side......lol.....only joshing ;DKrazy-P said:
You can thank MND Doug Young, Gen Baril, LGen Dallaire and MGen Couture for the degreed officer corps concept to bring us more in line with Allied Forces Offr Education Levels. This led to the creation of the Canadian Defence Academy and its Master's program, and of course the revamp of the OPDP to OPME.
Report to PM on Leadership and Management of CF in March 1997. Achieving a Degreed Officer Corps: the Implementation of the Minister of National Defence Recommendation #10 (1998).
see CDS Moe's 1999 address to Conf of Defence Assoc: http://www.cda-cdai.ca/seminars/1999/99cds.htm
To ensure that our people have the skills necessary of the 21st century soldier, the Canadian Forces have embarked on a series of educational reforms and initiatives. We have recently made a Bachelor's degree a prerequisite for a commission, and expect the officer corps to be fully degreed within 10 years.
We've also started thinking about graduate degrees for senior officers.
See 2003 pprogress report @ dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection/D3-15-2003E.pdf
Report to PM on Leadership and Management of CF in March 1997. Achieving a Degreed Officer Corps: the Implementation of the Minister of National Defence Recommendation #10 (1998).
see CDS Moe's 1999 address to Conf of Defence Assoc: http://www.cda-cdai.ca/seminars/1999/99cds.htm
To ensure that our people have the skills necessary of the 21st century soldier, the Canadian Forces have embarked on a series of educational reforms and initiatives. We have recently made a Bachelor's degree a prerequisite for a commission, and expect the officer corps to be fully degreed within 10 years.
We've also started thinking about graduate degrees for senior officers.
See 2003 pprogress report @ dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection/D3-15-2003E.pdf
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mine says you're cool, too.atticus said:
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it's a joke that probably dates back to the times of Scipio Africanus and Hannibal. It's certainly far older than any of the board members, and every one of them with more than 20 minutes in the army knows it's a joke. Officers spend far more time working at menial, mind-numbing paperwork, than NCO's, and then they have to ensure that they are still fit enough to lead the troops, etc, etc.ReadyAyeReady said:
Anybody who doesn't realize it's a joke is either very new or very thin-skinned. Maybe you should wait until you've actually been an officer for a while, before trying to jump in on these things, hmmm? It would probably save you from looking foolish.
