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Mutliple shots fired, Dawson College, Montreal

What we need is to prevent or treat antisocial behaviour, detect and take care of psychiatric cases, and have gun legislation that actually helps with preventing crime, or gun legislation that doesn't preclude legitimate use and possession of weapons just so the sheeple can feel better about themselves.

I agree with this partly.  You had many people associated to this creep that saw the signs and blew it off.  His "web friends" on that site are responsible for looking the other way.  Cases like these don't miraculously appear one morning.  They take years to simmer and stoke up into a fury of violence.  There are persons, and I think it will come out, who knew this guy was offside early.  This guy idiolized his weapon collection, posed in pictures and referenced them in his blog.  I have no doubt he showed/bragged about them to someone.  I  don't buy the argument that nobody saw this coming.  Poor attempts at denial and alot of blinders being worn..

Concealed weapons debate?.  This may make the fellow sheepdogs feel safer but will not change the fact the a few sick people in society will one day pick up a gun and walk into a crowd of innocents.  We all aware of the dynamics of combat and throwing more guns out there are not going to minimize the body count from these cases at all. 
 
Piker

Question:  How many of those types have you seen appear on this site?  What would/will you do in cases like that?  They are everywhere, and ignored by many.  How many 'nut jobs', Trolls, Posers, Wannabe's, etc. have we seen here and made fun of, or ignored, until they went away or we had to Ban?  Could someone who frequented this site have been, or could be, one of these who 'cracks' and goes 'Postal'?  How many 'Flamers' have you seen on this and other sites, get ignored and laughed at, only to go elsewhere?  Questions, and answers, that many of us discount or outright ignore.  The anonymity of the Internet gives us 'justification' at times not to act, and also protects the 'wackos' from being discovered and dealt with.  How do you report a personality on the Internet, who lives halfway around the world, to their local Police?  A lot of questions.  Few answers.  Many excuses.
 
PIKER said:
Concealed weapons debate?.  This may make the fellow sheepdogs feel safer but will not change the fact the a few sick people in society will one day pick up a gun and walk into a crowd of innocents.  We all aware of the dynamics of combat and throwing more guns out there are not going to minimize the body count from these cases at all. 

Gee, I guess the US Justice department is wrong when they state that private citizens with guns interrupted/prevented 2 million crimes in 2005. Sorry but the more legal firearms out there being carried will affect the people that do these things, as it ruins the image of large amount of helpless victims which they crave.
 
This is turning into a firearms debate best served in another thread perhaps.

I read the paper this morning and saw the picture of that young girl killed.  What a waste.

My heart goes out to the De Sousa family.  And as someone who's had (young) family on life support, my prayers go out to the families of those not yet out of the woods.
 
I do know one of the wounded persons that are in intensive care. I cannot understand how an individual could do such thing...
 
PIKER said:
This may make the fellow sheepdogs feel safer but will not change the fact the a few sick people in society will one day pick up a gun and walk into a crowd of innocents.  We all aware of the dynamics of combat and throwing more guns out there are not going to minimize the body count from these cases at all. 

So what about banning booze, so there will be no more drunk drivers on the road, or what about large V8 vehicles in the hands of die hard car nuts who deliberately drag on busy roads.

At the end of the day, no laws will change anything if a person is helll bent ok going on a shooting spree or comitting a crime of signifigance.
Sadly if this rat bag who did is horrific crime had no guns, he truly would have used a knives, swords or other instruments to do his dirty work.

Wes
 
Black Watch said:
I do know one of the wounded persons that are in intensive care. I cannot understand how an individual could do such thing...

I hope they all pull through, I am glad that the Police Officers nearby reacted as they did, they saved many more lives that day.
 
George Wallace said:
Piker

Question:  How many of those types have you seen appear on this site?  What would/will you do in cases like that?  They are everywhere, and ignored by many.  How many 'nut jobs', Trolls, Posers, Wannabe's, etc. have we seen here and made fun of, or ignored, until they went away or we had to Ban?  Could someone who frequented this site have been, or could be, one of these who 'cracks' and goes 'Postal'?  How many 'Flamers' have you seen on this and other sites, get ignored and laughed at, only to go elsewhere?  Questions, and answers, that many of us discount or outright ignore.  The anonymity of the Internet gives us 'justification' at times not to act, and also protects the 'wackos' from being discovered and dealt with.  How do you report a personality on the Internet, who lives halfway around the world, to their local Police?  A lot of questions.  Few answers.  Many excuses.

GW,
I see where you are goin and yes they are everywhere.Thankfully,  I have not witnessed a similar situation here.  However, there is a BIG difference here at this site vs vampirefreaks.(handsdown)  I do not have the luxury of seeing all the moderated content that you maybe privy too.    So I'm sure that there is a fair share of questionable people that have come through the doors here.  But due to our ethics here and high levels of moderation, (I'll plug your effort here) I think the idea of a pers from this site conducting an similar act is minimized.  This site can not  be compared to a vampirefreaks.  Your scenario could be further broken down into guest vs full member. But i'll deal with it as a full member.

I will be bold and suggest that this community is small and is strongly associated to our CF organization.  There is no or little anonimity here.  Everyone can be identified and its only a matter of resources.  I would think, as we are a more caring/social community here compared to an anti social site that every member here would respond,alert, reach out to a member in crisis.  Back to recent events.  After he was identified, I went to KG's blog and read his comments.  If you are asking what I would do in his scenario? after I saw the same type of content here I would exhaust avenues to alert or identify that member.. (But that's me.  So if you calling me out? given the evidence of that crime in our country, I'm duty bound to do so.  The writing is on the wall on what I do.)  There are people on his direct buddy list that would have clues or indicators that may of foreshadowed his demise.  Now, yes, his indicators would be camoflaged to some of  that general membership by the subculture and it's facination with violence.

I'd argue with you the days of "denialbility" in this country have come to an end and excuses will not be as readily available.  Now compare a member vs moderator/owner??. Your liabilty as a moderator is higher than mine and you should consider what you must do? Should you find yourself in that position as you have accepted that higher position.
But surf over to that vampire site and count your lucky stars you are not a mod-god there.

How do you report a matter to the police half way around the world?  It comes down to how hard you see it through.  I think you had posted earlier of the morals of reporting stolen kit and ebay?  This is not much diiferent and comes down what is the right thing to do.  As we are mostly sheepdogs here, someone would step up.  But to answer when in doubt.  You start locally for direction and given the situation it will be scrutinize into the next investigative action.

Any legal eagles like to weigh in on denial vs liable??

Cheers,
 
Wesley 'Over There' (formerly Down Under) said:
So what about banning booze, so there will be no more drunk drivers on the road, or what about large V8 vehicles in the hands of die hard car nuts who deliberately drag on busy roads.

At the end of the day, no laws will change anything if a person is helll bent ok going on a shooting spree or comitting a crime of signifigance.
Sadly if this rat bag who did is horrific crime had no guns, he truly would have used a knives, swords or other instruments to do his dirty work.

Wes
Exactly my point that carrying concealed weapons would not prevent someone who is hell bent despite the suggestion made earlier in this thread.. You are right with your statement.

Colin,

I call source?..  I'd rather not turn this into a gun debate.  But the current Carry Conceal requirements work for those who qualify and are authorized.  And call me selfish but it makes it safer enviroment for LEOs..
 
So, I am going to ask the question nobody wants to ask.  The police were quick to state he was born in Quebec.  Why would they think we would ask where he was born?

Because when they learned who he was, they thought we might assume that with a name such as "Kimveer Gill" , we might be asking questions not just about goths, but about multi-culti kids trapped between two or three cultures and finding belonging as a Goth Metal freak.

What does Gill's family look like?  Are they hidden from view until tempers lower?

No cousins speaking out? No friends?  No grade 3 teachers?

Enough about Goths, let's talk about Gills.
 
The Brother of one of the shooting victims is now lashing out against Harper for still pushing to take down the long gun registry.  
The (emo, goth, d****ebag) shooter purchased the weapons he used legally.  If anything, this shows how useless the registry really is, and how it helps in no way...and shows why the move to abolish it has merit.  No disrespect intended, but this brother, although I understand his anger, needs to get his head on straight.

I dont support his views for one more reason...How exactly do they expect us to get tougher?  There are far too many ways for undesirable people to get their hands on guns.  There is no way we can close those holes.  Perhaps the only thing we can do is get a lot tougher on the crime itself.

Linkage!
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060914/shooting_victims_060915/20060915?hub=TopStories
 
From 'The Times Of India':

"WASHINGTON: Kimveer Gill, a youth of Sikh origin, went on a shooting spree on Wednesday, killing one and injuring 19 before he was shot dead.

Canada has a large Sikh population, including many second and third generation Sikhs descended from forbears who came to the country’s western shores almost a century ago. They are typically well-integrated into Canada’s multi-cultural society and have strong community affiliations.

But peers described Gill as a loner who had no friends. In one of his blog entries, Gill himself says he is not a "people person". A neighbour said Gill never had visitors and would always dress in black."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1992624.cms
 
Sadly, you just KNEW this question was going to be asked......

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

Shooter had brief military service
TU THANH HA, INGRID PERITZ, ANDRÉ PICARD, Globe & Mail, 16 Sept 06
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060916.SHOOTGILL16/TPStory/National

The gunman who went on a rampage at Montreal's Dawson College on Wednesday, killing one woman and leading to the injury of 20 other people, was briefly a member of the Canadian Forces.

Kimveer Gill did basic training at the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School in Saint-Jean, Que., from Jan. 17 to Feb. 16, 1999.

"We can confirm that the perpetrator served for a one-month period," John Knoff, a spokesman for National Defence, said last night.

He stressed, however, that Mr. Gill did not get any weapons training, nor did he do anything but rudimentary basic training, which is largely physical exercise and disciplinary training.

"He did not complete his basic training," Mr. Knoff said. The spokesman said he did not know the circumstances of Mr. Gill's premature departure.

Friends said that, even in high school, Mr. Gill spoke of joining the Armed Forces, in large part because of his fascination with guns.

Jaspal Brar, a close family friend, said Mr. Gill's family knew about his interest in guns, but regarded it as a hobby. The weapons used in the rampage were all legally registered, and signatures from close family members were required to get permits.

Mrs. Brar insisted that the killer never showed any outward signs of violence or anger, and there was no inkling of the violent, hateful outburst that culminated in Mr. Gill's suicide.

"He was a good kid -- he never fought or anything," she said in an interview.

"I saw him grow up. He was always friendly with us. I never saw a change in him."

Mrs. Brar said the family is devastated by what has happened. "They're a normal family. Now they're looking for an answer: What went wrong?"

Mr. Gill, 25, whose nihilistic rantings and gun-worshipping photos on a blog have now been widely publicized, appears to have shielded his sordid obsessions from his parents.

Parvinder Sandhu, his mother, told Radio-Canada television that she knew nothing about his hate-filled postings on the Web.

She said she was deeply shaken by the attacks and expressed sorrow to the families of her son's victims. She told Radio-Canada her son had shown no warning signs before his shooting rampage, although he had become perceptibly sadder in the days before the attack.

New evidence is emerging that suggests Mr. Gill had plotted his attack for a considerable time.

The TVA network reported last night that security cameras inside the Alexis Nihon Plaza, the shopping mall across the street from Dawson College, captured Mr. Gill on videotape as far back as Aug. 10, presumably staking out the area. The report also revealed that police found a note on Mr. Gill's body that said he was targeting the junior college, but not offering any motive.

One of the most puzzling aspects of the crime is why the gunman went to the downtown Montreal school. There is no evidence he had any link to the institution.

Another revelation yesterday was that Mr. Gill took a hostage on the sidewalk shortly after arriving at the scene. The man, a lawyer, was forced to carry a bag containing the killer's shotgun and ammunition. (Mr. Gill himself carried a .45 calibre pistol and a 9 mm semi-automatic rifle.)

The lawyer, according to a broadcast report, ducked behind a car when shooting began, and kept the bag with him.

Mr. Gill's first shots were actually fired at two police officers who happened to be at the school investigating a minor crime. Those shots hit two passers-by, and prompted the officers to confront the killer almost immediately, which likely prevented many more deaths.

Mr. Gill proceeded into Dawson College, where he shot a number of students and staff members and engaged in a gun battle with police. He used at least two other hostages as human shields during the shooting rampage.

According to published reports, police fired only six shots, fearing that ricocheting bullets would hit students. Mr. Gill fired dozens of shots; the gunman fired his last bullet into his own head, committing suicide.

Police later discovered more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition in the killer's car.

One young woman, 18-year-old Anastasia De Sousa, died during the rampage. The results of the autopsy conducted on the young woman, made public yesterday, showed she was shot nine times at close range. All her major organs were damaged, meaning she had no chance of survival.
 
My cousin is a first-year student at Dawson. He was leaving the school as the shooter walked in.  He didn't see a weapon but he did notice him as he walked past and his intial thought was 'that guy looks pretty screwed up'.  He didn't actually hear about the shooting until sometime later.

It sounds to me like the police and emergency services did a good job in response - way to go lads.

Apparently he didn't last long in the forces.  Perhaps we have kinder, gentler recruiting and training, but at least the system, one way or another, filtered this fooknut out. 



 
Hunter said:
Apparently he didn't last long in the forces.  Perhaps we have kinder, gentler recruiting and training, but at least the system, one way or another, filtered this fooknut out. 

Yeah, but to the sheeple, this just goes to show how evil and dangerous the military is. They don't understand that if you don't make it past basic training, you don't know squat. Well, even when you do make it past basic training you still know nothing at all, but you know even less before you pass it. All they understand is "this guy was in the military at one point" added to "this guy shot a bunch of people and was a wacko" equals (in the mind of NDP traitors and other assorted cowards and hippies) "the military is full of wackos who want to kill people."
 
Frederik G said:
Yeah, but to the sheeple, this just goes to show how evil and dangerous the military is. They don't understand that if you don't make it past basic training, you don't know squat. Well, even when you do make it past basic training you still know nothing at all, but you know even less before you pass it. All they understand is "this guy was in the military at one point" added to "this guy shot a bunch of people and was a wacko" equals (in the mind of NDP traitors and other assorted cowards and hippies) "the military is full of wackos who want to kill people."

Well maybe but I'm thinking most folks will look at the fact that he only lasted a month and then we gave him the heave ho. Of course for the folks who listen to Taliban Jack you'll never be able to convince them anyway that we areen't all bad.
 
That's a weak connection to the CF, at best.  I'm surprised the media even mentioned it.  I was still learning how not to shit my pants when my Section Leader in Basic walked past me at one month.  I think the discipline is likely what pushed him out.

Too bad, because I don't like to think about where I would have been without the CF.  A couple of "talks" behind the generator sorted me out, and put me on the right path.  Could have been the same for this guy.
 
He might have been wearing his turban back then. That can be a tough way to do basic if you are young.
 
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