New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[GR66]

The Aussies are replacing several ship classes with the ARAFURA class, including the HUON's. The capabilities and design would seem to check off all the boxes Underway mentioned above.

I've seen it mentioned several times on these forums that a very large part of the cost of a new vessel is in the design, the electronics and the weapon systems.

Instead of adding a completely new class of ship to the fleet would there be any benefit to simply adding a few more CSC hulls but fitting them with a less sophisticated electronics suite more in line with an OPV-type ship and a reduced weapon system (maybe a 40mm RWS in place of the main gun?).

It would have the benefit of commonality of parts and crew training requirements.  It would be a larger vessel with good weather handling that could act as a "lilly pad" for helicopter operations, a flex deck for various purposes, room for embarked personnel, etc.

Would such an option be able to be safely manned by a small enough crew and would the standardization benefits be sufficient to make it a worthwhile option?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The MCDV's can get into places the larger ships can't, the AOP's will fill some of the current roles the MCDV's do, but their eventually replacement may require two different hulls, but you can have common systems aboard.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Except for a couple of AOPs and Asterix, none of the warships have been delivered, and won’t be for years/decades to come.* So adding ships to be built adds to the problem.  Really, and this is sad, but buying somebody else’s existing, already built and in use ship, might be the better way to go. 

* I will go so far as to ***guess*** that some of the existing frigates will receive one more substantial upgrade before being struck.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The MCDV's can get into places the larger ships can't, the AOP's will fill some of the current roles the MCDV's do, but their eventually replacement may require two different hulls, but you can have common systems aboard.

lolz, I see your common sense plan for common equipment, and raise you PWGSC's protests that you are supposed to just set requirements and not sole source or direct them to buy specific equipment.

Case in point; 6 AOPs and 2 JSS don't have common equipment because 2 different ship yards are selecting equipment based on the unique requirements. On the flip side, the ISSC for both will be done by Thales, and includes provisions for them to seek opportunities to streamline things by doing things like suggesting common equipment for replacements. It was super stupid, as we could have had the same IPMS or whatever on both classes, but will probably have to wait 15 years until it becomes obsolete.

Wish we did it with more GFE like the USN or other navies do; it would simplify things a lot.

 

[FSTO]

Except for a couple of AOPs and Asterix, none of the warships have been delivered, and won’t be for years/decades to come.* So adding ships to be built adds to the problem.  Really, and this is sad, but buying somebody else’s existing, already built and in use ship, might be the better way to go. 

* I will go so far as to ***guess*** that some of the existing frigates will receive one more substantial upgrade before being struck.

Are you old enough to remember the Harbour Training Ships Columbia and St Croix? Some of our frigates are in such poor shape that they'll be regulated to that role or just hulks to be stripped down of all usable equipment to keep their sister ships viable.

 

[Spencer100]

Canada does have some first class and high tech shipbuilding or in case design skills. 

https://www.porttechnology.org/news/abu-dhabi-continues-smart-port-transformation-with-autonomous-tugboat/?mod=djemlogistics_h

I would think this is the future. 

 

[Navy_Pete]

Are you old enough to remember the Harbour Training Ships Columbia and St Croix? Some of our frigates are in such poor shape that they'll be regulated to that role or just hulks to be stripped down of all usable equipment to keep their sister ships viable.

Did they also not do that to Huron for a bit before she was decommisioned?  From what I understand they were able to run through things like flashup and ran the trainees through maintenance under supervision while she was alongside (rather then use training aids ashore or walk through it).

 

[Underway]

Are you old enough to remember the Harbour Training Ships Columbia and St Croix? Some of our frigates are in such poor shape that they'll be regulated to that role or just hulks to be stripped down of all usable equipment to keep their sister ships viable.

I'm sure some will be sold.  For places like Chile, they would be considered almost new.

 

[CBH99]

Are you old enough to remember the Harbour Training Ships Columbia and St Croix? Some of our frigates are in such poor shape that they'll be regulated to that role or just hulks to be stripped down of all usable equipment to keep their sister ships viable.

I don't have any exposure to the fleet.  Is this actually true though?

Aren't the Halifax's fairly fresh from their midlife refits?  Is this simply a maintenance issue?  Why are some ships in better shape than others? 

 

[MarkOttawa]

I'm sure some will be sold.  For places like Chile, they would be considered almost new.

Cheap--in fact Chile's frigates are roughly same vintage as RCN's--and not long ago we had to rent an AOR from them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_ships_of_the_Chilean_Navy

Cool website too:
https://www.armada.cl/armada/site/tax/port/all/taxport_29_29__1.html

AOR:
https://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/chile-chili/highlights-faits/2015/2015-07-PetroleroDeArmada.aspx?lang=eng

Mark
Ottawa

 

[FSTO]

I don't have any exposure to the fleet.  Is this actually true though?

Aren't the Halifax's fairly fresh from their midlife refits?  Is this simply a maintenance issue?  Why are some ships in better shape than others?

The refit concentrated on systems instead of structure. These ships have been run HARD and were not built as well as the old steamers and 280's. They were designed for 25 years but we are hoping for 40 and may get around 32 years out of them. If I had a magic wand, we would have foregone the refit and concentrated on getting the CSC's out the door 5 years ago. At 25 years, sell the ships to 2nd world nations and have new ships ready to work.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The refit concentrated on systems instead of structure. These ships have been run HARD and were not built as well as the old steamers and 280's. They were designed for 25 years but we are hoping for 40 and may get around 32 years out of them. If I had a magic wand, we would have foregone the refit and concentrated on getting the CSC's out the door 5 years ago. At 25 years, sell the ships to 2nd world nations and have new ships ready to work.

Bingo. Midlife refits are a waste of time and money. Warships have a fleet life of about 20-25 years: after that the maintenance curve goes through the roof. So, do a docking work period with system updates every 5 years and ditch the ship (scrap or sell) after the 4th one and before the 5th becomes necessary.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Are you old enough to remember the Harbour Training Ships Columbia and St Croix? Some of our frigates are in such poor shape that they'll be regulated to that role or just hulks to be stripped down of all usable equipment to keep their sister ships viable.

Lol; I chipped paint on the Colombia before the first CPF keel was laid. Yes that’s what I’m thinking the RCN is headed for. Look at the cost of these programs and look at what the country is getting for the money. It’s insane. You really have to hope like hell that the egg heads in Ottawa have it right.

 

[OldSolduer]

Bingo. Midlife refits are a waste of time and money. Warships have a fleet life of about 20-25 years: after that the maintenance curve goes through the roof. So, do a docking work period with system updates every 5 years and ditch the ship (scrap or sell) after the 4th one and before the 5th becomes necessary.

Can you enlighten some of us that would like to know why a ship is only viable for 25 years? I reckon it may have to do with the constant exposure to salt water?

My Niner Domsestic got a briefing on the Disney Magic, which will be retired from the Disney Fleet after 25 years service....say.....there may be an opportunity.... I jest of course.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

3 ships of the NSPS together

 

[Spencer100]

3 ships of the NSPS together

Nice trip around the continent!

 

[FSTO]

Can you enlighten some of us that would like to know why a ship is only viable for 25 years? I reckon it may have to do with the constant exposure to salt water?

My Niner Domsestic got a briefing on the Disney Magic, which will be retired from the Disney Fleet after 25 years service....say.....there may be an opportunity.... I jest of course.

I think the 25 year lifespan is somewhat arbitrary but when you look at the process of getting a warship from the nav architects to the builders and then to the actual officers and sailors you are already looking at 10-15 years before the ship actually touches salt water. So in reality the building of a warship is kind of a crystal ball thing, will there be massive changes in hull form, propulsion, sensors and weapons systems in that decade and a half? Are we purchasing the right components?
Then when that ship is delivered to the Navy we drive it like we stole it. So unlike a container ship going one speed with minimal course changes, the warship is roaring around in circles, slamming on the breaks, going into dangerous waters and like it or not bumping into things. Then we decide at 20 to 25 years to open up the old girl and add and or take off things and cover up as best we can the underlying structural problems.
And then shutting down and rebuilding an entire shipbuilding industry every generation doesn't help with the lessons learned thingy at all.

Better to build the ships in batches of 4, incorporate improvements in the next couple of batches and then when batch 4 (for 16 ships) is being built already have a new design ready to begin building at the completion of ship 16 and ships 1-4 are ready to retire for scrap or if someone is interested sold off to get a few more years out of her.

 

[Underway]

Aren't the Halifax's fairly fresh from their midlife refits?  Is this simply a maintenance issue?  Why are some ships in better shape than others?

Yes, they are but the refit focused almost exclusively on updating the combat suite. The hull and marine systems were not updated.  Freddy's recent docking work period replaced almost 20m of steel amidships due to rust out and metal fatigue.

Some of the problems stem from maintenance.  The common complaint from the engineering side is that the NWO types don't understand maintenance routines, and these are the first to go when operational requirements call. There is, of course, a balance in all things and its swinging back to the engineers.

Part of that is due to fixing another problem the fleet had.  An ability to inspect and baseline equipment/parts/hull structures.  Translating that information into money, and lost hours for the ship operating is forcing the NWO's to re-evaluate maintenance (a pinch of prevention saves a pound of cure).  The other part was the flat out loss of the 280's due to not planning maintenance, refits and overuse.

As far as why some ships are in better shape, it often has to do with operational tempo and sometimes luck.  HMCS Toronto and HMCS Fredriction were worked very hard during the OP APOLLO and OP ATHENA years. Toronto did multiple back to back deployments.  VDQ was doing much less overseas deployments.  VDQ is currently in amazing shape, where as Toronto and Freddy require much more work to keep going.

 

[NavyShooter]

Nice trip around the continent!

I find it notable that the one ship not built by the yard visible is the one ship that's actually sailing...and is capable of sailing around a continent.

As for the Halifax Class - there was a LOT of steel returned by the RCN post MLR that ISI ran out of time/money to install on the hulls.  That was steel which was surveyed as requiring replacement before the ships went into the MLR...and wasn't done...so how much worse has it gotten since then? 

The MLR was not a re-fit, it was a combat-systems reconfiguration.  The MAR ENG world either had or let their major 'big ticket' items get pushed out of the MLR - DG replacement, Chiller replacements, etc.  Can't blame them.

 

[newfin]

3 ships of the NSPS together

Very cool photo.  Unfortunately it has been recently reported that both of the two hulls tied up at Irving are going to be late, again.  I am sure that Irving is doing whatever they can to milk extra money out of the Federal Government.  Several months from now we will be forced to listen to an executive brag about how once again, they've delivered ships on time and under budget.  :rofl: