New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[MilEME09]

Agree it would be useful, but it's not as easy as just picking up a ship when we are already stretched for qualified, experience crews.

Well coincidentally there seems to be a growing population of job seekers in this country, if I was working recruiting right now I would be figuring out how to pull bodies in once we start up again. I fully believe we can do it, but I can honestly say I haven't seen anything for recruiting in years, perhaps a more aggressive approach is in order?

Edit to fix quote syntax.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Okay but if it creates more jetty hopping that's the kind of thing that drives people out. It's been happening for years and will only get worse as you add more ships. If we don't have enough people currently, you can't add more ships without sorting the crewing out first.  Stupid to buy ships for billions and then tie them up alongside because you are short bodies.

One challenge for the Mistrals is the French Navy crewing concept they are designed to has a higher baseline of training and experience for the crew (ie mostly MS and up). USN ships are similarly challenging, as they have a lot of bodies to do basic/specialized tasks. Makes a massive difference when you are looking at buying an off the shelf design, but why RN, RNZN, RAN and some other NATO navy ships work well.

Agree it would be useful, but it's not as easy as just picking up a ship when we are already stretched for qualified, experience crews.

So what your saying is the crew stays longer on the same ship in the French navy? Jetty hooping I assume means come back from deployment, a few days off and then back to sea again? Yes that would suck. It sounds like the senior staff says yes to more things than the ships and crews can handle. I wonder if the dual crew system would work for the navy, say 48 days at sea/onboard and 48 off? You need about 2.5 crews for that per ship though, to allow for training, extended leave, medical, family etc.

 

[garb811]

Well coincidentally there seems to be a growing population of job seekers in this country, if I was working recruiting right now I would be figuring out how to pull bodies in once we start up again. I fully believe we can do it, but I can honestly say I haven't seen anything for recruiting in years, perhaps a more aggressive approach is in order?

Edit to fix quote syntax.

Recruiting isn't the problem (for the vast majority of MOS), the problem is throughput of the schools and retaining trained pers.

 

[quadrapiper]

Recruiting isn't the problem (for the vast majority of MOS), the problem is throughput of the schools and retaining trained pers.

Are the hard-sea-trade schools operating at physical capacity - i.e., is it "just" a matter of funding more instructors and consumables?

 

[MilEME09]

Recruiting isn't the problem (for the vast majority of MOS), the problem is throughput of the schools and retaining trained pers.

Do we need to slow our operational tempo so more people can be diverted to be instructors?

 

[NavyShooter]

The various schools were amalgamated into "Campuses" about 4 years ago.  That was an outstanding success. 

It was such a success that when I found out I was posted out of there, I was exceedingly joyful.

Consider, a section that previously had 12 instructors including a Senior Instructor, plus a Standards cell to support it, is now down to 5 personnel including the SI, and the SI is assigned the role of being "standards" as well. 

Where a SI previously had the depth of field to assign 2 instructors per course for 4 courses in house (1x QL5, 3x QL3) which is required for safety purposes when working on electronic/electrical gear, with 3 other instructors that could be cycled in to cover off leave, illness, MATA/PATA, or sending one off to a ship to fill an empty spot.  That flexibility is now gone - there's 4 instructors - plus the SI.  You can run 2x classes, and have to call in a favour if one of your instructors is sick, has a car accident, etc.  The loss of the depth of field is...a concern.  I was told that we would CFTPO instructors up from the fleet if we were short.  I almost kept a straight face when I was told that. 

As for bad mouthing the workers at local shipyards...well, based upon my experience, I use the words "incompetence", "thievery", "unsafe", and "wilful deliberate sabotage."

If you want the specific examples, I can sit down over a coffee and detail the multiple ships I brought out of the 'local' yard and the myriad of problems with them. 

When I was offered a job at said certain local shipyard, I responded to the person who headhunted me the following:

"I have too much pride in myself, and value my name to dear to see it on the same business card as the word "XXXXXX".

There are a few problems with the Navy, and our training system, and our support/maintenance system, and our procurement system.  In the end, the sailors who are boots on the deckplates will do the things necessary to keep our ships at sea.  As they've always done.

NS

 

[MTShaw]

As for bad mouthing the workers at local shipyards...well, based upon my experience, I use the words "incompetence", "thievery", "unsafe", and "wilful deliberate sabotage."

If you want the specific examples, I can sit down over a coffee and detail the multiple ships I brought out of the 'local' yard and the myriad of problems with them. 

My local yard is Seaspan.  I have confidence in their ability to build quality ships. Perhaps Irving’s shit reputation is warranted. I’m to young and too late in the game to have that cynicism yet. If they’re if they’re still struggling with the fitting-out of ship three, I’ll say right here that Irving sucks.

Thanks NS for your input.  Like I said, I most certainly don’t have the history and I do appreciate the mild correction.

Michael

 

[MilEME09]

My local yard is Seaspan.  I have confidence in their ability to build quality ships. Perhaps Irving’s crap reputation is warranted. I’m to young and too late in the game to have that cynicism yet. If they’re if they’re still struggling with the fitting-out of ship three, I’ll say right here that Irving sucks.

Thanks NS for your input.  Like I said, I most certainly don’t have the history and I do appreciate the mild correction.

Michael

Friend of mine worked out in the yards on the west coast years ago, do not know if it was seaspan, however his opinion was that the employees and the unions were more concerned with keeping their pay cheque's then they were about doing the job right, and that's putting it mildly, exact same stuff Navyshooter mentioned was going on.

 

[Navy_Pete]

So what your saying is the crew stays longer on the same ship in the French navy? Jetty hooping I assume means come back from deployment, a few days off and then back to sea again? Yes that would suck. It sounds like the senior staff says yes to more things than the ships and crews can handle. I wonder if the dual crew system would work for the navy, say 48 days at sea/onboard and 48 off? You need about 2.5 crews for that per ship though, to allow for training, extended leave, medical, family etc.

No, I mean they have less junior people. Maybe it was lost in translation when I was talking to a counterpart in the French Navy, but my understanding was they don't have any killicks or below on the Mistrals, and their general crewing philosophy is different. I think they funnel in from a training fleet (or maybe smaller patrol ships).  Think it may be a lot closer (for at least the engineering side) to civilian qualifications where they roll in fully qualified to their level, whereas we do a lot of OJT.  We could make it work, but it means you are pulling folks off the current fleet where they are needed to go to sea.

 

[MTShaw]

Friend of mine worked out in the yards on the west coast years ago, do not know if it was seaspan, however his opinion was that the employees and the unions were more concerned with keeping their pay cheque's then they were about doing the job right, and that's putting it mildly, exact same stuff Navyshooter mentioned was going on.

And going back to Mark’s idealizing Australia’s program: I’m sure they have the same problems. Look at their AWD program. And I’m almost certain the American’s have the same problem.

But because of the Jobs they provide, and because Lockheed’s spreading a lot of the work on the CSC around Canada, we’ve created a self-licKing ice cream cone.

I guess I want ships that work, even if it takes longer.

Michael

 

[NavyShooter]

My local yard is Seaspan.  I have confidence in their ability to build quality ships. Perhaps Irving’s shit reputation is warranted. I’m to young and too late in the game to have that cynicism yet. If they’re if they’re still struggling with the fitting-out of ship three, I’ll say right here that Irving sucks.

Thanks NS for your input.  Like I said, I most certainly don’t have the history and I do appreciate the mild correction.

Michael

Wilful deliberate sabotage is not mild.


The decades of history here in the East Coast are not solely reflective of one yard - all of the yards seem to be more concerned about getting their money rather than producing quality. 


When a ship that's supposed to need 20,000 hours of work to re-activate needs over 100,000 - there's more than just a minor problem.


When you have to put padlocks on unoccupied compartments during the refit so that workers don't go to hide and have naps, that's more than just a minor problem.


When you have over 1000 form 1148's outstanding when you leave a 'yard, that's more than just a minor problem.


When you have two ships in a row who's blackwater system has been blocked in exactly the same spot, with welding rods and bolts hammered into the pipe...that's more than a minor problem.

When you have a crew that spends 4 months de-storing ship to the point that you're stripping every piece of visible brass, from lazy-rod covers to fire-hoses, because if you don't they'll be stolen or cut-off and stolen...that's more than a minor problem.  (Scrap brass values apparently made this worthwhile to do by someone in a certain yard.) 


The mild correction is more than just mild.  I'm hoping that perhaps the experiences I've had on multiple ships is not reflective of every shipyard in Canada, but I think their only concern is getting money from the government...not fixing our ships properly.


NS

 

[MilEME09]

Unfortunately its political suicide to take the work off shore

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I wonder if we need some "Marine Gurkha's" (Not actual Gurkha's), the British army recently got 10,000 applications for 420 positions, they managed to do their selection in Nepal in short order to select the 420 candidates who all passed their basic training. Perhaps offer X number of seagoing positions to a friendly developing country. Selections are done in that country and the prospective sailors come here for basic and trade training. After a 10 years service they can immigrate to Canada with their families (counting against immigration numbers as a whole). We get committed and motivated people. This does not address the short fall in trained people, but could quickly beef up the number of sailors available to sail, giving some space for people to take courses. Start with a small number and slowly build it up.   

 

[MilEME09]

I wonder if we need some "Marine Gurkha's" (Not actual Gurkha's), the British army recently got 10,000 applications for 420 positions, they managed to do their selection in Nepal in short order to select the 420 candidates who all passed their basic training. Perhaps offer X number of seagoing positions to a friendly developing country. Selections are done in that country and the prospective sailors come here for basic and trade training. After a 10 years service they can immigrate to Canada with their families (counting against immigration numbers as a whole). We get committed and motivated people. This does not address the short fall in trained people, but could quickly beef up the number of sailors available to sail, giving some space for people to take courses. Start with a small number and slowly build it up. 

Being an immigrant nation why are we not offering citizenship in exchange for service like other nations do?

 

[Cloud Cover]

Because Canadian values and all that.



Military service is not valued by Canadians or its governments.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Sadly sums up a lot of our problems and way solutions fail.

 

[OldSolduer]

Because Canadian values and all that.



Military service is not valued by Canadians or its governments.

You, sir, just won the Internet.

At best, the CAF is viewed by most as a domestic fire brigade and at worst a bunch of thieving miscreants.

Thank you to "liberal" historians who actually think that the military's traditional role is "peacekeeping" and continue to perpetuate that myth. Cyprus is over.

Peacekeeping is something the CAF is good at - or was - because of its reputation coming out of WWII and Korea.

 

[dimsum]

And going back to Mark’s idealizing Australia’s program: I’m sure they have the same problems. Look at their AWD program.

And their Attack-class subs, which haven't even had steel cut yet.  And before that, the Collins-class subs.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-australias-attack-class-submarine-program-trouble-135452

https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/australias-collins-class-submarines-enter-a-20th-year-of-trouble/

 

[MarkOttawa]

And their Attack-class subs, which haven't even had steel cut yet.  And before that, the Collins-class subs.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-australias-attack-class-submarine-program-trouble-135452

https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/australias-collins-class-submarines-enter-a-20th-year-of-trouble/

Not "idealizing" Aussies but at least they actually move their programs forward and much earlier than we do by comparison. Also willing to buy some things abroad--85% for HMAS Canberra from Navantia (https://www.navantia.es/en/news/press-releases/hmas-canberra-handed-over-to-the-royal-australian-navy/) and new icebreaker for Antarctic built by Damen in Romania (http://www.antarctica.gov.au/icebreaker)--it's when they insist on building in Oz that they have problems perhaps similar to ours.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[RDBZ]

Not "idealizing" Aussies but at least they actually move their programs forward and much earlier than we do by comparison. Also willing to buy some things abroad--85% for HMAS Canberra from Navantia (https://www.navantia.es/en/news/press-releases/hmas-canberra-handed-over-to-the-royal-australian-navy/) and new icebreaker for Antarctic built by Damen in Romania (http://www.antarctica.gov.au/icebreaker)--it's when they insist on building in Oz that they have problems perhaps similar to ours.

Mark
Ottaw

The work completed in Spain on the LHDs and construction of the icebreaker Nuyina has been comparatively simple, though.  Building the Hobart class was an order of magnitude more complex, with the Collins class being yet another order of magnitude more difficult.