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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

I think you need to strike submarines from that list. Highly specialized building yards and we'll never be able to keep enough orders for them to be profitable without costing double what a foreign built one would be.
 
PuckChaser said:
I think you need to strike submarines from that list. Highly specialized building yards and we'll never be able to keep enough orders for them to be profitable without costing double what a foreign built one would be.

I would then just toos submarine in the long term maintenance pile, we could never be competitive in that field with the americans, germans, and so on.
 
MarkOttawa said:
MilEME09:

I suspect that is never never land.

Mark
Ottawa

I think there is hope for Seaspan in Vancouver. It is located near a major maritime activity corridor and the yard is big enough to handle the government of Canada construction work and accommodate other work at the same time in a useful amount. If they use the original program funding to modernize production properly, they could tap into the smaller but more lucrative construction of specialized "one-off" vessels used for special tasks (deep diving support tenders - processing plant ships, etc.) as Davie, under European management is doing now very efficiently.

I don't think there is any hope for Irving Shipyard however, because as long as they are using the yard for government builds, the yard is too small to do anything else than some repair work on passing traffic from time to time. And where would you go to expand the yard?
 
They're expanding the yard in the direction of the basin to some degree.
 
jollyjacktar said:
They're expanding the yard in the direction of the basin to some degree.

Isn't that to put up their new parking complex? I don't believe they are adding any slips, nor could they.
 
This is what I have never understood re: the deal with Irving Shipbuilding.  The Saint John Yard was far bigger than the Halifax Yard with plenty of room for expansion.  The government paid Irving to decommission the Saint John Yard only to pay them again for a new yard with less capacity than the yard they had in Saint John and no room for expansion.  The concept literally makes no sense.

The only thing I can think of is Irving being able to get work for offshore oil industry when/if it actually cranks into overdrive.  Sable Island and Offshore was supposed to be the next big thing but I've read there is far less gas then they originally thought.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
I think there is hope for Seaspan in Vancouver. It is located near a major maritime activity corridor and the yard is big enough to handle the government of Canada construction work and accommodate other work at the same time in a useful amount. If they use the original program funding to modernize production properly, they could tap into the smaller but more lucrative construction of specialized "one-off" vessels used for special tasks (deep diving support tenders - processing plant ships, etc.) as Davie, under European management is doing now very efficiently.

I don't think there is any hope for Irving Shipyard however, because as long as they are using the yard for government builds, the yard is too small to do anything else than some repair work on passing traffic from time to time. And where would you go to expand the yard?


It seems to me that you're saying that there isn "hope" for a Canadian shipbuilding industry, supported by a moderate, but steady, flow of government (including warship) contracts; maybe not on the scale of France or South Korea, but "hope" all the same; is that right?

If that's true, and assuming one of those yards must be on the Pacific coast, then how many other yards (in the Great Lakes, the Fleuve Saint-Laurent and/or on the Atlantic Coast) are viable and/or necessary?

-----

Slightly related, but WRT a Canadian marine strategy: we need, as part of a national strategy one military centre in the Arctic: Nanisivik? Resolute Bay? Grise Fiord? It needs to be accessible by C-17 (year round) and AOPS for n months of the year. (Is n ≥ 7 a useful guess?) We should want to have a small permanent staff there: Loggies, mainly, I suppose. A permanent military presence is, in my view, a sine qua non for asserting and maintaining sovereignty in the region, especially in/on/under the waterways. Part of the "price" of (not just for, but associated with) AOPS should be an Arctic port ~ as part of the "price" for securing the North.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
It seems to me that you're saying that there isn "hope" for a Canadian shipbuilding industry, supported by a moderate, but steady, flow of government (including warship) contracts; maybe not on the scale of France or South Korea, but "hope" all the same; is that right?

If that's true, and assuming one of those yards must be on the Pacific coast, then how many other yards (in the Great Lakes, the Fleuve Saint-Laurent and/or on the Atlantic Coast) are viable and/or necessary?

Not quite what I am saying. Royal Drew hit it more on the nose: At Irving's, the yard is too small to permit both the government build and other work to go on simultaneously. And yes, the St-John shipyard would have been better. So if the strategy is to make an industry that will become more self sufficient (i.e. will get private contracts) that was not the right yard to pick.

We have to be careful here, however. The Shipbuilding Strategy is an industrial strategy to support a specific industry, but those shipyards remain private enterprise. The government has no business telling them to close or stay open. Best proof is Davie Shipbuilding: entirely privately owned, it is currently the largest operating shipyard in Canada, has good bookings and is doing fine since it came out of bankruptcy protection. It was not part of the selection process during the selection of yards for the Ship building strategy because it was in bankruptcy proceedings. However, it is proving to be viable without any government assistance.

Also, we have to be very careful about claiming, all the time, that the government "paid the Irving's to close Saint-John Shipbuilding". It is not that simple.

While the government paid the Irving's a huge amount to build a modern and efficient new shipyard for the Saint-John Shipbuilding yard and gave them contracts for twelve large and expensive builds (the HAL's), the Irving's completely failed to market that into civvies side contracts to keep the yard going and/or expand. So when the Batch III frigates were cancelled (before even letting the contract out), the Irving found themselves with a completely idle yard and tons of employees to lay off as a result of their failure to market their new yard.

They parlayed their political capital into some form of "damages" for the "cancellation" from the government so they could pay for the lay-offs without digging into their own pocket. The government reluctantly agreed to avoid the political fall-out but then required the yard to be closed for good as compensation (so they would never have to do this again).

Considering this, it is surprising that the current government decided to go with a yard operated by the Irving's yet again, though to their discharge, the Halifax yard has always survived on repair/refit work when no government work was ongoing.
 
The fast cats here was an attempt to create a "boutique" ship building industry as it was clear we could not compete on conventional hulls. The politicians should have kept it at that, it was always a gamble and a worthy one in my opinion. Glen Clark tying his political future to them was dumb just as the way they were sold off was equally dumb. There was a lot of spin off benefits and aluminum small craft industry here is a direct result of the training and skillsets acquired. 
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Not quite what I am saying. Royal Drew hit it more on the nose: At Irving's, the yard is too small to permit both the government build and other work to go on simultaneously. And yes, the St-John shipyard would have been better. So if the strategy is to make an industry that will become more self sufficient (i.e. will get private contracts) that was not the right yard to pick.

We have to be careful here, however. The Shipbuilding Strategy is an industrial strategy to support a specific industry, but those shipyards remain private enterprise. The government has no business telling them to close or stay open. Best proof is Davie Shipbuilding: entirely privately owned, it is currently the largest operating shipyard in Canada, has good bookings and is doing fine since it came out of bankruptcy protection. It was not part of the selection process during the selection of yards for the Ship building strategy because it was in bankruptcy proceedings. However, it is proving to be viable without any government assistance.

Also, we have to be very careful about claiming, all the time, that the government "paid the Irving's to close Saint-John Shipbuilding". It is not that simple.

While the government paid the Irving's a huge amount to build a modern and efficient new shipyard for the Saint-John Shipbuilding yard and gave them contracts for twelve large and expensive builds (the HAL's), the Irving's completely failed to market that into civvies side contracts to keep the yard going and/or expand. So when the Batch III frigates were cancelled (before even letting the contract out), the Irving found themselves with a completely idle yard and tons of employees to lay off as a result of their failure to market their new yard.

They parlayed their political capital into some form of "damages" for the "cancellation" from the government so they could pay for the lay-offs without digging into their own pocket. The government reluctantly agreed to avoid the political fall-out but then required the yard to be closed for good as compensation (so they would never have to do this again).

Considering this, it is surprising that the current government decided to go with a yard operated by the Irving's yet again, though to their discharge, the Halifax yard has always survived on repair/refit work when no government work was ongoing.

OGBD, I don't know what Irving's strategy is with regards to the NSPS long term but I know that they have a strategy which may not be apparent to us.  The Irving's own over 300 different companies and subsidiaries, all of which are vertically integrated with one and other.  Both Irving Oil and J.D. Irving, through its Kent Line subsidiary, run their own merchant fleets of tankers, bulk carriers and container ships.  Many of these ships were built in the 80's and 90's when Saint John Shipbuilding was still in full swing.  Perhaps the play is to have the government pay for a new shipyard and also for an initial batch of naval vessels at which point Irving will be in position to revitalize their own fleet.  If that doesn't happen they can always reroll the money they have made off the NSPS into some of their other industries, this is exactly what happened at Saint John Shipbuilding as part of the site is now occupied by a brand new paper mill. 
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Isn't that to put up their new parking complex? I don't believe they are adding any slips, nor could they.

The parkade is on the Niobe Gate side of the yard.  Their new constuction is on the other end.  They have a new building which was expanded size-wise (I believe) to the basin side of their turf.  Construction will be modules which will be spit out as as full ship on the basin end (IIRC).  But, yes, you're right in that they don't have the luxury of real estate to go big with ala Davies etc.  I have not seen SeaSpan so I don't have any idea of what their turf looks like.
 
Davie's specific ship for AOR:

cj1C4.jpg

http://ow.ly/i/cj1C4

More on twitter:

1) @TimmyC62

Timothy Choi #Resolve #AOR for @RCN_MRC 2 b built on 2010-vintage Asterix 1702 TEU, already purchased fr owners by @chantierdavie
https://twitter.com/TimmyC62/status/630838165398360064

2) @TimmyC62

Purchase price of hull was $20m, conversion cost expected to be $350m, to be chartered out to RCN by new Davie subsidiary
https://twitter.com/TimmyC62/status/630838475227443200


Plus:

Davie’s AOR ship gets boost from Hepburn

An agreement between Hepburn Engineering and Davie Shipbuilding will bring new technologies to Davie’s Resolve-Class Auxiliary Oiler Replenishment (AOR) ship.

As the leading supplier of Underway Replenishment Systems, Hepburn will provide Davie with a Replenishment-At-Sea (RAS) system. Previously, Hepburn has supplied the RCN and RAS with equipment for over 45 years...
http://www.vanguardcanada.com/2015/08/10/davies-aor-ship-gets-boost-from-hepburn/

Mark
Ottawa
 
question is, if bought as a stop gap, after our own purpose built ships are ready, will these ones continue use? I woul hope yes if they are good at their jobs, one of these for 370 million? bloody well buy 2-4 of them for cheap, then we would have a fleet of AOR's to cover when some are in refit, or long term maintenance and once our own two/three are build we probably would have two ready on each coast at all times giving us more mission flexibility.
 
I'll bet that the Berlin's get the axe in favour of leasing the services from Davies, Chile, Spain etc etc etc.
 
jollyjacktar said:
I'll bet that the Berlin's get the axe in favour of leasing the services from Davies, Chile, Spain etc etc etc.

cutting our losses at two ships would be more cost effective, and just buy these ships outright from Davies, just think for 2.2 billion we could get 5.9 ships by my liberal calculations. thats a lot more bang for our buck.
 
And Davie has now branched off and become not just a shipyard but also a PMC, interesting times. 
 
jollyjacktar:

I'll bet that the Berlin's get the axe in favour of leasing the services from Davies, Chile, Spain etc etc etc.

Can't see any gov't taking the B.C./Seaspan political risk--however more AOR work for Davie works well politically for Quebec and then fewer CSCs (but nothing need be said about that for some time).

Mark
Ottawa
 
That may be so, but I'm not the only one with these suspicions.
 
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