New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[jmt18325]

Are you a Davie Lobbyist?  You are pushing this awful hard.  :

We are getting the Berlin's.  This ship is a stopgap, nothing more.

I'm in favour of getting this one and keeping it.  If we get the Berlins, keep those too.  We had a requirement for 3 ships, after all.

 

[jmt18325]

For me though, the problem with the current plan is this - we go without replacements for the the CCGs most important vessels for a very long while into the future.  There seems to be enough work here for all 3 yards.  If this had been started when the Conservatives first took office, it might not be quite so dire now.

 

[Good2Golf]

Davie AOR conversion tweet:

The front of that sure looks like CSC conceptual artwork...Davie building an angle here?

 

[jollyjacktar]

Their primary role is to refuel and resupply.  It seems that this ship would do that better.

Yes, that is the primary role of an AOR, however, we do more with them than just that.

Some problems that might face us with a converted merchant (as experienced by the RAN with HMAS SIRIS). 

This vessel is large, she won't be able to berth at Esquimault for starters. 

Merchant vessels such as container ships are designed to go from point A to point B at a given speed for maximum efficiency.  Not to speed up and slow down like a yo-yo as demanded during a RAS or moving in concert with a task group or assignment.  They're not suited to chase down (as they're able) and board other vessels (as we were doing with the PRO/PRE).

The tank conversions are going to make it difficult to move fuel around and ballast the ship as needed.  If you can't easily move the fuel, it can and does go bad.  Which is expensive and another headache in and of itself.  (I've seen that happen on PRE)

Where are you going to stick all these RCN personnel?  The ship is designed and built for a small merchant crew.

As for a helicopter...  what the RAN tried with SIRIS and tacked on a contraption on the ass end.

These were some of the points brought up by my boss, who is a NAVARC and is a Tanker Wanker as well.

 

[jmt18325]

Where are you going to stick all these RCN personnel?  The ship is designed and built for a small merchant crew.

As for a helicopter...  what the RAN tried with SIRIS and tacked on a contraption on the *** end.

Have you looked at the website?

http://projectresolve.ca/website/

The entire superstructure is to be replaced.

 

[Infanteer]

If the ship is as good as that website, we are golden!

 

[Good2Golf]

Historically, we've received even more capability than the contractor promised, and usually early and under budget. :nod:

[/sarcasm]

;D

 

[PuckChaser]

I'm in favour of getting this one and keeping it.  If we get the Berlins, keep those too.  We had a requirement for 3 ships, after all.

The RCN can't man the ships were have/had, and you want them to get more than they asked for?

 

[jmt18325]

They asked for 3.  It's also worth noting that this ship will be crewed by civilians.  It would have no impact.

 

[jollyjacktar]

They asked for 3.  It's also worth noting that this ship will be crewed by civilians.  It would have no impact.

Really?  So what about the 100+ RCN personnel who'll be attached to this vessel???

 

[jmt18325]

Really?  So what about the 100+ RCN personnel who'll be attached to this vessel???

Each new vessel that comes online will take fewer personnel than those that came before.  Add to that the fact that we're unlikely to get 15 CSCs...

 

[PuckChaser]

So you're hoping the surface combatant program under delivers so we can get an extra support ship to support fewer CSCs?

 

[jollyjacktar]

Well, seeing as you're apparently not a sailor, I can understand your basis for comment. 

Right now and now for the foreseeable future, we have a manning issue.  Again, our vessels are not merchant vessels.  We do more with our ships than just go from port to port delivering goods and cargo.  They (merchant ships) are not as manpower thirsty as they're not busy running ops rooms with various watches, carrying out boardings on target vessels, humanitarian missions ashore, RAS, going into harms way and therefore needing damage control/casualty clearing teams to deal with those events and I could go on.  Right now, we're robbing Peter to pay Paul to get ships to sea.  Davies dream will be coming on line far in advance of the Queenstowns, AOPS or CSC, as those projects get closer to completing ships, they'll require manpower for those projects.

Yes, they both (merchant/naval) float around on the augie in ships.  But, how they do business is very different and each requires a different method of getting their respective business done. 

 

[jmt18325]

So you're hoping the surface combatant program under delivers so we can get an extra support ship to support fewer CSCs?

I'm hoping I'm pleasantly surprised.  I'm just being realistic given the history of Canadian procurement.

 

[jmt18325]

Well, seeing as you're apparently not a sailor, I can understand your basis for comment. 

Right now and now for the foreseeable future, we have a manning issue.  Again, our vessels are not merchant vessels.  We do more with our ships than just go from port to port delivering goods and cargo.

But should we?  That's am important question really.  Maybe we should leave the warship work to warships. 

 

[Navy_Pete]

Queenstons will be full milspec.

??Berlin class was built to Classification Society Germanische Lloyd spec, which is a commercial design standards, with some additional design changes to meet military needs (ie some basic self defence).  That's far different then a milspec design in a lot of respects.

https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/blohmvoss-class-lhd.html

So far we're up to $370 million for a used, bastardized ship.  Seem like a good deal to anyone?  There will probably also be challenges from all the other shipyards that could have done this work that wasn't put out for solicitation that will cost us (taxpayers) a lot of money.  Also there will probably be a lot of hidden costs that we eat in our operational budgets, plus the actual lease costs.

This is politics at its worst.

 

[jmt18325]

And if we do continue to do that, would it be bad to have a 3rd ship like the Resolve available, so that we always have a ship (well, 99% of the time anyway) that can respond when needed?

 

[Underway]

??Berlin class was built to Classification Society Germanische Lloyd spec, which is a commercial design standards, with some additional design changes to meet military needs (ie some basic self defence).  That's far different then a milspec design in a lot of respects.

https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/blohmvoss-class-lhd.html

So far we're up to $370 million for a used, bastardized ship.  Seem like a good deal to anyone?  There will probably also be challenges from all the other shipyards that could have done this work that wasn't put out for solicitation that will cost us (taxpayers) a lot of money.  Also there will probably be a lot of hidden costs that we eat in our operational budgets, plus the actual lease costs.

This is politics at its worst.

Two things, we aren't getting Berlins, we are getting Bohn's, which quite frankly only look the same on the outside.  The Bohn is very different as it took lessons learned from the Berlins and made an entirely new type of ship 11 years later.

Secondly a "used bastardized ship" is a hell of a lot better than no ship at all, or even the PRE, PRO at the end of their life.  And its limited risk for the gov't.  We're only leasing the ship.  So how much money do you think they are willing to pay for the conversion.  Maybe Davie takes all the risk here, certainly its less risk for the gov't than building all new ships themselves.  And I don't see a plethora of AOR's floating around the ocean so they prob could find another customer if needed no problem (Aussies always seem to like to buy used...). 
Probably should have done this a long time ago.

 

[Navy_Pete]

It's just not cost effective and a bad use of taxpayer money.    And may or may not get any real capability, all just to buy some votes in QC.

This would have been a good decision in 2013.  Or 2011.  It's not like the AORs suddenly got to be 45 years old, this was a known problem that was exacerbated by the govt funding cuts to DND.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Two things, we aren't getting Berlins, we are getting Bohn's, which quite frankly only look the same on the outside.  The Bohn is very different as it took lessons learned from the Berlins and made an entirely new type of ship 11 years later.

Actually, we aren't getting Bohns either.  Changes to maritimes regulations and other class society regs since the Bohn was built meant the design needed to be updated, and I'm sure it will be 'Canadianized'.