Obligatory Service in the CAF

[Wanderingaimlessly]

Like I said, the member is over 10 years of service.

He is a 2Lt who has just recently failed MOC training with few options being presented at the PSO level.  Formerly trained in an NCM occupation, the member presented wanting to take "the honorable way out" after seeing the apparently ghastly state of the reassignment list.  He has found potentially lucrative work in the public sector, but it doesn't seem that he is getting the information he needs.  Standard stuff attached to his file: good conduct, never charged, and has a potentially useful degree to the CF.  I sat with this guy for an hour and couldn't give him an answer beyond check with the release center.  The cost apparently has a huge amount to do with if he will seek his release.

 

[dapaterson]

Seen.  Is he currently in a period of obligatory service, or a period of restricted release?

Calculations are at times somewhat arcane - I am not an expert in the area, and there are not a large number of folks who can pull together the info on short notice.

 

[Wanderingaimlessly]

The member is in his period of obligatory service now.  I realize those sorts of calculations are tough, but I would love to tell this guy he won't be hit for $400,000.  My napkin math on that might be in error, but it blew me away. 

 

[George Wallace]

The member is in his period of obligatory service now.  I realize those sorts of calculations are tough, but I would love to tell this guy he won't be hit for $400,000.  My napkin math on that might be in error, but it blew me away.

That is your calculation for reimbursement to the Crown for the 'Education' the CF has provided him with for his tenure at RMC?

 

[dapaterson]

Seen.  Keep in mind that periods of leave and periods of military employment during the individual's time at school can be removed from the oblig service calculations on request (per DAOD 5049-1).  There's also the MND's power under QR&O 15.07 (5) to reduce amounts owing.

 

[cupper]

The member is in his period of obligatory service now.  I realize those sorts of calculations are tough, but I would love to tell this guy he won't be hit for $400,000.  My napkin math on that might be in error, but it blew me away.

I may be wrong but that seems quite high a number (but I don't claim to know anything on this subject). Even the most elite schools in the US don't cost that much for an undergrad degree. Maybe $100K.

 

[dapaterson]

I may be wrong but that seems quite high a number (but I don't claim to know anything on this subject). Even the most elite schools in the US don't cost that much for an undergrad degree. Maybe $100K.

Keep in mind that the individual repays not only tuition but also salary received while a student - that adds up quickly.

 

[Wanderingaimlessly]

That is your calculation for reimbursement to the Crown for the 'Education' the CF has provided him with for his tenure at RMC?

Yes.  Factoring in salary, benefits, and cost of education for a former corporal it comes out to nearly that much.  I guess the big question is did I forget to carry the 1?

I factored in full pay and all that, but I have heard strange tales in similar cases where someone in similar shoes gets hit for around $100,000.  I wonder if the MND can reduce it to a more sane amount if the member puts in a memo or something to that effect.  He talked to me about his situation and I did feel for him.  No trades on offer for a guy they spent trying to make into an officer.  Seemingly only problems he has had are in phase training. 

 

[Robert0288]

but I have heard strange tales in similar cases where someone in similar shoes gets hit for around $100,000

I can confirm that those tales weren't all that strange (though amount was slightly less), and can be paid out over the course of a decade.  This individual was not in the same circumstances as your buddy

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So why can't the guy come here and give us the specifics and ask his own questions?

Getting things through an intermediary and second hand may result in wrong passage of information and potentially, financial detriment.

It would be much better for you to point him here and let him carry his own ball.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I believe "he" already is.  8)

 

[CountDC]

for salary - are you using just the years he was in school? Assuming 4 years there that would put him roughly at $200k just for salary.

Those at $100k and less are most likely ROTP OCdts getting a lot less pay than a Cpl, less time to pay back for or have had it reduced.

I would suggest that if he only has a couple years left then he serve them and save a lot of money and heartache.  As mentioned there is no return to offset what he will owe in the end.

 

[M_M]

How can you have 10 years in and STILL HAVE oblig service?!

The max amount anyone can incur is 5 years for a period of subsidize education, unless he went on to do a Masters/PhD (if you take 1.5-2 years, that adds 3-4), that would put him over the 10 years required to do school and pay it off.

People have released with only a year or less than a year of their time served and it has cost them between 30k - 50k. Nothing in the realm of 400k or even 100k, unless he was a UTPNCM getting Cpl spec 2 or Sgt/WO pay WHILE he was in school. 

 

[George Wallace]

How can you have 10 years in and STILL HAVE oblig service?!

The max amount anyone can incur is 5 years for a period of subsidize education, unless he went on to do a Masters/PhD (if you take 1.5-2 years, that adds 3-4), that would put him over the 10 years required to do school and pay it off.

People have released with only a year or less than a year of their time served and it has cost them between 30k - 50k. Nothing in the realm of 400k or even 100k, unless he was a UTPNCM getting Cpl spec 2 or Sgt/WO pay WHILE he was in school.

Please.....Think before you hit send. 


Here are some examples:


VIE for 00191 051 Dent DEO is 6 years
VIE for 00191 051 Dent ROTP is 10 years

VIE for 00192 048 HCA DEO is 9 years
VIE for 00192 048 HCA ROTP is 13 years

VIE for 00195 057 NUR DEO is 6 years
VIE for 00195 057 NUR ROTP is 10 years

VIE for 00196 055 MED DEO is 5 years
VIE for 00196 055 MED ROTP is 12 years

VIE for 00204 067 LEGAL DEO is 4 years
VIE for 00204 067 LEGAL MLTP is 13 years

VIE for 00214 081 MPO DEO is 9 years
VIE for 00214 081 MPO ROTP is 13 years





There are many more examples where Obligatory Service is over 10 years in length. 

 

[yoman]

George, I don't think your talking about the same thing. Obligatory service in the sense they're talking about isn't the same thing as the VIE. I have a 12 year VIE but my obligatory service is only 2 months of service for every month of education (normally five years if ROTP). As a result the member could release before the end of his VIE without incurring any financial penalties due to his schooling if his period of obligatory service is served.

It's also quite possible for a member to have 10 years in while still having obligatory service.

Potential example fitting this case for someone going for pilot:

3 years former NCM trade
4 years of milcol                                                        owes 5 years
3 years to get trade qualified to get wings              time restarts, owes 5 years
Fails phase training after getting wings                    still has whatever time remaining of his pilot obligatory service

This is an extreme case but it's just to show that it is possible to have obligatory service with 10 years of service.

 

[DAA]

First off, there should be a "Statement of Understanding" on the members Pers File which will outline what is or isn't applicable to the individual which they would have had to sign prior to commencement of subsidized education.  A period of "Restricted Release" runs concurrent with the period of "Obligatory Service".  If the member is contemplating release, I see no reason why a request cannot be initiated by the member through the supporting Release Section to DGMC requesting a "pay back value" based on a future date.

This will allow the person sufficient information on which to make an informed decision.

 

[M_M]

Please.....Think before you hit send.

There are many more examples where Obligatory Service is over 10 years in length.

Right back at you, mister. Just because I'm a forum noob, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about when I post or don't have anything meaningful to contribute.

Oligatory service is time you MUST pay back before you can release (or face financial penalty). Variable Initial Engagement is the first contract you sign and the amount of service you must fullfil prior to being eligible for full release benefits when leaving the CF. 

 

[PuckChaser]

VIE can also equal obligatory service, which was the case with my CT and awarding of recruitment allowance. Had I not served those 4 years, I would owe a prorated amount of the $20,000 back.

 

[M_M]

VIE can also equal obligatory service, which was the case with my CT and awarding of recruitment allowance. Had I not served those 4 years, I would owe a prorated amount of the $20,000 back.

Correct, part of you VIE is obligatory service but the reverse is NOT true.

ROTP candidates usually end up with a  13 year VIE, 4 years is spent in school, 5 is paying back for the school (obligatory service), and the last 4 is just your VIE. If you finished the first 9 years, you do NOT owe monies to the Crown. The first 9 years are simultaneously obligatory and part of your VIE, but the last 4 years is in NO WAY mandatory or will cause you to incur some kind of debt against the Crown.

I'm only speaking for officers, I don't know how it works for NCMs receiving subsidized education. I imagine it is very similar, only the time frames would be different.

 

[Brasidas]

Correct, part of you VIE is obligatory service but the reverse is NOT true.

ROTP candidates usually end up with a  13 year VIE, 4 years is spent in school, 5 is paying back for the school (obligatory service), and the last 4 is just your VIE. If you finished the first 9 years, you do NOT owe monies to the Crown. The first 9 years are simultaneously obligatory and part of your VIE, but the last 4 years is in NO WAY mandatory or will cause you to incur some kind of debt against the Crown.

I'm only speaking for officers, I don't know how it works for NCMs receiving subsidized education. I imagine it is very similar, only the time frames would be different.

4 years spent in school, as a non-spec pay Cpl 4, for pay alone is $231168.

Owing 5 years on the same pay rate would be $288960. It's possible for him to owe more than 5 years depending on the trade, and there's also education and other expenses incurred by the crown.