Obligatory Service in the CAF

[chasechap]

  I asked this question NOT because this is the path I want to pursue. I simpy ask because one of my teachers had his contract paid off upon his graduation from RMC and he went to study in France. I thought it didn't make sense and I didn't understand how the process works.
  Again, not because this is what I wanted to do, nor was it in pursuit of a way to abuse the system.

 

[captloadie]

There have always been several OCDTs every year that have been "bought out" by companies or other learning institutions. Most, at least of the ones I knew, didn't enter RMC with that as the plan. Some realized late in their education that the real military wasn't for them, or were in a trade that no longer interested them. Should they have been forced to complete their moral obligation to serve? Yes, but at what additional cost to the CF, knowing that when their obligatory service was up, they were gone.

I would strongly agree that entering RMC with the end goal of getting out is unethical.

 

[jwtg]

There have always been several OCDTs every year that have been "bought out" by companies or other learning institutions. Most, at least of the ones I knew, didn't enter RMC with that as the plan. Some realized late in their education that the real military wasn't for them, or were in a trade that no longer interested them. Should they have been forced to complete their moral obligation to serve? Yes, but at what additional cost to the CF, knowing that when their obligatory service was up, they were gone.

I would strongly agree that entering RMC with the end goal of getting out is unethical.

What he said.  The whispers we usually hear around here (RMC) are of students (typically in engineering) getting bought out- meaning all the costs owed because of their VR prior to fulfilling obligatory service - and going into the Civi world.  It seems to be something that people realize between 2nd-4th year, once they've already locked in for obligatory service but have a bit more exposure to the CF and have decided it isn't for them.

This doesn't happen very often, and it's not something you should be excited about as an applicant/1st year.  As far as I'm concerned, I signed a contract saying I would work for a bunch of years after graduation.  Further, all my time spent studying is pensionable.  If they hold up their end of the contract, I'm going to hold up mine.

Also, 4 yrs school + 21 yrs work = 25 years + pension.  Not a bad package.

 

[dcs]

I think that you will find the professor, when he was a student, was part of cuts and offers made many years ago when cost reduction was wanted many years ago.  I have also been told that back in the 60's and 70's Air Canada would buy out for pilots....... that was then this is now (if it even did happen).    Also as had been stated in earlier posts, I find it disgraceful and disappointing that individuals given such an opportunity would now be looking into or considering not living up to their commitments.

Individuals doing so should have to pay back the full cost of their eduction and training including salary, and be unable for an extended period (if not forever) to work for any capacity for the government again.  For an engineer tuition, salary etc  should be at least 200K.  For pilot even more as takes a few years to get your wings...... perhaps 400K or more. 

Any individual can decide before the start of second year, and leave as per the agreement they signed.... not after four when they have received all of the benefits and as you state personal status and recognition in the civilian world of the value of RMC.

There are loads of good candidates that I am sure intend and will live up to their obligation.  I fully endorse any testing or work done by DND to evaluate this for candidates and recover fully all costs from individuals that leave.  If anything it has to be a penalty in doing so, and at least cost neutral (should be greater than) to DND and taxpayers in general. 

The taxpayers and RMC/DND deserve such. or even greater in my and I think just about everyone else's opinion.

 

[Sigs Pig]

They would not. Committing to serve for a period of time in order to get your education paid for (both university and military courses) only to leverage that training in order to spring yourself into a career is unethical and I would argue counterproductive to the company hiring. If you are so unwilling to honour your commitments to Canada, what would make any company think that you would be willing to honour your commitment to them after they "buy you out"?

Please tell me you are not already in RMC. If you are, then you have not been paying much attention.

If you are so unwilling to honour your commitments to Canada marriage, what would make any company SOB think that you would be willing to honour your commitment to them after they "buy you out"?

Posing it a different way, are you more of a fiend to "leave" Canada or your marriage? You (may have) promised to honour both to the end.
I am with a divorcee, but she had left on her own before I met her, was not "bought out". So even though she did not honour her vows she left to keep her sanity.

ME

 

[jeffb]

Posing it a different way, are you more of a fiend to "leave" Canada or your marriage? You (may have) promised to honour both to the end.
I am with a divorcee, but she had left on her own before I met her, was not "bought out". So even though she did not honour her vows she left to keep her sanity.

That argument is apples to oranges. The committment made in this case involves a significant financial investment when you include military training costs, school, books, salary, etc. When a marriage ends there is a reckoning of accounts so to speak. Assets and debts are split according to whatever argreement is reached, parenting understandings are arrived at etc. While some of the costs are covered when the OCdt "buys out" their contract, most a not.

Furthermore, I don't think anyone enters into a marriage with the intent of gaining the benefits (however you define them) and then leaving after a fixed period. The factor that is so odious here is the intent, not the act.

 

[Messerschmitt]

If you really want to go into civilian, either release now before your 2nd year starts, or after your graduation, complete your obligatory service and then release

 

[cupper]

Relax guys, the OP stated that he had no intention of doing such, but was questioning info about a Teacher who had done such.

I find it difficult to comprehend that a company would make such an offer to someone who has very limited experience in whatever field they are in. To invest $200 to 400K to buy out a contract to hire someone for what would amount to an entry level position would be risky at best, unless the person was in a highly skilled profession like pilot, where there was a severe shortage of trained personnel in the available pool.

 

[rfell]

I was wondering if anyone here has gone through or is in the process of completing a voluntary release after receiving subsidized education?

I have served 1 of my 3 years of obligatory service and honestly don't think I can do the next 2 years.  It's just not for me.  I figured I would ask here because I am worried that the repayment cost will be quite high and by requesting this figure through my CoC may set in action my own release.

My release is contingent on the repayment figure, I have no problem repaying ~$20,000 dollars if it means I can release, but anything greater and I will have to hang around. 

Note:  I am very familiar with the repayment calculation found within CFAO's, etc...  These guidelines are loosely defined I am looking for a tangible number that another member has been quoted or repaid.

Any help in the matter is greatly appreciated.

 

[GeorgeD]

I believe that if you release after you have incurred obligatory service you will be charged for everything. This means salaries for the entire time at school as well as tuition,books, PLD if you received it. There was a guy who released just after a full year of Subsidized Education and he has to pay back in the excess of $80,000 just for one year.


I don't know if working for a year decreases the figure or even if you can get a VR after getting to a posting. I know if you quit while in school you will have to pay everything back not entirely sure if it differs after one year of your obligatory service.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I was wondering if anyone here has gone through or is in the process of completing a voluntary release after receiving subsidized education?

I have served 1 of my 3 years of obligatory service and honestly don't think I can do the next 2 years.  It's just not for me.  I figured I would ask here because I am worried that the repayment cost will be quite high and by requesting this figure through my CoC may set in action my own release.

My release is contingent on the repayment figure, I have no problem repaying ~$20,000 dollars if it means I can release, but anything greater and I will have to hang around. 

Note:  I am very familiar with the repayment calculation found within CFAO's, etc...  These guidelines are loosely defined I am looking for a tangible number that another member has been quoted or repaid.

Any help in the matter is greatly appreciated.

Actually, your release would be contingent on whether it was approved by the release authority.  And (in my opinion only), the reason you cite for wanting to leave is unlikely to rise to the required criteria of either exceptional or extenuating circumstances.  Yes, I know that what you mean is you'll only request release is if you can afford it.  Well, what's one more whiny little s**t in the organization for an extra year and a half (yes, you have two years of obligatory service left, but even if you reimburse the Crown, you still have to give the mandatory six months notice).

The only thing that triggers a (voluntary) release is the member actually requesting release IAW current orders and directives.  Asking for how much you would have to reimburse the Crown is not requesting release, but (again my opinion) you may end up waiting a long time for the applicable authorities to action such a request simply because its not their standard routine.  If you request release, they have standard procedures for determining how much you owe the taxpayers, but (unless things have changed since I've retired) you are not released until you provide an acceptable (to the Crown) method of payment (e.g. cash or certified cheque).

There are probably more up to date standard operating procedures (they may even be accessible on the DIN) but the following are the guidelines used in the mid-1990s (even though they originated and hadn't changed since the 1970s) by the careers shop.  (I found this, on a old disk that I have, in a pub titled CHIEF PERSONNEL CAREERS & DEVELOPMENT - OPERATING PROCEDURES MANUAL)

RELEASE

210-3, REIMBURSEMENT TO THE CROWN FOR TRAINING OR SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION

PART II -- OFFICERS

PURPOSE

1.  To establish a standard procedure for determining the amount of
money which must be reimbursed to the Crown by an officer seeking
release prior to completion of obligatory service following a course or
subsidized education; and confirming the method of payment.

CPCSA POLICY

2.  DGPCO is responsible for determining the amount of reimbursement
and method of payment including confirmation of the unit.

3.  D Pers A3 is responsible to ensure that release instructions
contain an adequate cross-reference to the releasing agency regarding
recovery.

4.  The assessment of the amount to be reimbursed will be made in
accordance with QR&O 15.18.

5.  Authority to waive or reduce the amount of reimbursement is vested
in the Minister; except that in cases where an individual requests
release and waiver in order to take up employment in other government
service, and is willing to sign a Bond under seal to remain in such
employ for the duration of his obligatory service, the Minister has
delegated such authority to ADM(Per).

PROCEDURE

6.  On receipt of a request for release which involves reimbursement,
the CM will confirm the attendance dates of the course or education and
then obtain the following information:

    a.  Pay and Allowances

          (1)  From DPS - a statement of the total amount of the
              member's pay and allowances for the period involved,

AND

    b.  Tuition Fees and Expenses

          (1)  From DATES - a statement of tuition fees and expenses for
              books/instruments paid out for a post-graduate student,

      (2)  From DATES - a statement of tuition fees and expenses for
            books/instruments paid out for a graduate from UTP,

OR

      (3)  From QR&O Volume I Appendix X Chapter 5 Fees in respect
            to a graduate member of a Canadian Service College.

7.When the amount of money to be reimbursed has been determined, the CM
will obtain approval for release in accordance with CPCSA Operating
Procedures Manual Item 102-1, and the procedures detailed in Item 112-3.

8.Once the release is approved and prior to the issue of the release
instructions, the CM will confirm the method of payment by contact with the
unit. Normal processes include payment by cash or certified cheque made
payable to the Receiver General of Canada, deposited with the Base
Comptroller. A promissory note is acceptable but such transactions should
be reviewed by DPLS. A combination of the above methods is also acceptable.

9.D Pers A3 will issue the release instruction on direction from the CM
and will ensure that a statement is included to the effect that the release
is subject to reimbursement as previously determined. A copy of the release
instruction will be forwarded to DPS.

ADDITIONAL COMMENT

10.Bond - The wording of a Bond under seal (where the individual is
authorized to complete his service in another government department) should
be confirmed with DPLS.

11.Waiver - Submissions for waiver or reduction will be prepared by the
CM after suitable review of the request and determination of the financial
impact. Such submissions will be forwarded to the Minister or ADM(Per) if
applicable, in accordance with CFP 121(1) and Item 101-4 of this Manual.

References: QR&O 15.18, CFAO 9-12, CFAO 9-33, CFAO 15-2

Item Date:  May 76

Reviewed Date: Mar 78

OPI:        DGPCO

Sponsor:    DPCAO 4

OCI:        D Pers A3
            DPLS
            DPS
            DATES

 

[Staff Weenie]

Try looking at DAOD 5049-1, Obligatory Service, at:

http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5049/1_e.asp

The DAOD has numerous links to other policies and documents that be of help.

 

[Pieman]

Hmm....what if he did something to cause a 5 d) release. Think they could force someone to pay back even though they are being tossed? Just examining all options. (even the bad ones, ha!)

 

[CombatDoc]

It also depends on your trade i.e .stressed trade or one that is overborne.  If you're in a stressed MOSID then your chances of getting approval for a "oblig buyback " are likely much better than if your MOSID is short.  What do you do?

 

[421_434_226]

Pieman, not too sure about that I am certain that there are parade squares all over the place that could use sweeping or snow shoveling until the required time in is fulfilled.

 

[Drag]

Hmm....what if he did something to cause a 5 d) release. Think they could force someone to pay back even though they are being tossed? Just examining all options. (even the bad ones, ha!)

I know someone that tried to get himself released upon graduation from university, but before completion on BOTP to avoid completing his obligatory service and paying back the cost of his subsidized education.  Didn't quite work for him and he got kept as a GD OCdt.

 

[kratz]

I had a member of the family chose to cease her training as a Air Traffic Controller (Officer trade), where her civilian related university education was paid for. Very similar to the OP’s query so far.

In her situation, she did her 5 years and did not owe the Crown anything upon release.  Based on hearing her comments over time, you are smart to recognize not fitting in and wanting to exit sooner, rather than later.

The challenge is to be gainfully employed while burning off the time you owe. This is where most positive or negative comments through experience seem to come from.

As others have posted, you took the shiny crown, now you dance until the song is over. It’s the age old carrot and stick approach.

 

[cgrey]

Well I've got good news for you (I think).  I had a similar situation (NCM - College) but it all depends if you had training at RMC or at any University as a Commissioned Member - OR you received the same (or College) as an NCM.

After reading the DAOD's and QR&O's (http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp ref 4. a, b) on the matter I initially believed I'd be owing for my cost of education [ 80k+ deal breaker ], and para 15.07 mentions a Salary payback as well, but under the circumstances: "except for any period during which the member performed normal service duties" must pay his "pay and allowances including the rate of subsistence allowance for his rank and status".  Now for me any time I have to be dragged to a parade, show up in uniform, or work on Military related subject matter that is active duty.  Be it in the classroom or in a field.  Some had the notion that that did not constitute 'Active Duty' but it does.

Furthermore the costs of Books, housing, and actual subject matter is SAID to be 2 days per 1 day of school (Or 2 Months/1 Month Teaching - your call on the measurement) can be further broken into the exact time you worked for that Certification, Diploma, Bachelor, whatever.  For me, one day a week was purely Army, minus non-class time (Lunch, breaks, etc.) and you can bring that time toward repayment up.  This is however circumstantial and worked in my case, it really depends on how you present the issue.

Regardless of my last, the best way to start is to contact your nearest release section and schedule an interview.  It's what I did and I could confidentially ask my questions without becoming a pariah.  Find the cost, and your time owed minus time in, and get a real answer.  Don't listen to angry people who get up-in-arms (AKA angry little s**ts) about your idea of leaving - for me the Army is a job, not a life-style and I see no reason to stay until my initial is over, and definitely not after.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Don't listen to angry people who get up-in-arms (AKA angry little s**ts) about your idea of leaving - for me the Army is a job, not a life-style and I see no reason to stay until my initial is over, and definitely not after.

Ya for sure, why on earth would you stay until the initial contract you signed is over? That's for suckers

 

[cgrey]

Because sometimes when you first sign a new Contract, you are told how the trade will be and it isn't always like it says on paper.  I'm not saying always but sometimes that trade is not what you signed for and truth be told you will be better suited to something else.  Doing something because you signed a contract makes no sense if you hate your job, are hard to work with (not saying you are), start to slack etc. 

You get one life to live, and 3 years may not sound like a long time but I'd rather see one of my men doing something they enjoy.  Not enjoying your job and hating it, and not dealing with it is being a sucker.  Any day I'd say paying once for a mistake is better than sticking through and paying every day for three years.

In a much smaller scale:  Getting a shiny new phone on a three year contract.  If It does not perform as you expected, but you've gotten use out of it, and you're willing to pay (not weasel out for free) then it's not wrong to cancel that contract.  It's your right.