Paid parking DND property

[Remius]

Again, if I understand things correctly - there are two options available:

1.  Make you pay for parking
2.  Hit you with the value of parking as a taxable benefit.

If the market value of the parking spot is $100 per month, that means I'd pay $1200 per year out of my pocket for the parking spot under option #1.

However (and correct me if I'm wrong as to where the benefit is applied in a tax scenario), if option #2 were in play, I'd get $1200 in benefits added to my annual taxable income, but only pay whatever taxes apply according to the marginal tax brackets.  That means I'd probably only be out of pocket ~$500 for the year.

Why, other than to maximize revenue, would the Crown choose to force people to pay for their parking, when a taxable benefit would be the more advantageous option to the members?

in a nutshell, yes that's how it works.  If you took option two yes.  But you also have to factor in CPP and EI deductions that will also increase and it could potentially put you in another tax bracket as well.

And the Crown isn't forcing anyone to pay for their parking.  While it may be a more advantageous option for the members it is an admnistrative nightmare to manage, meaning more staff, more money when the easy solution is to just let the member pay as they see fit.  And not all government facilities are government owned.  They pay rent, lease etc many many locations and parking revenue does not go back into the coffers in most cases.  And the facilities that are DND owned that would charge parking do not have enough parking to begin with so really we are not talking about a lot of money here in the grand scheme.

 

[Remius]

Not everything has to be written down for it to be the truth

Except that in this case, what you are claiming isn't the truth.  Go back a few years in this very thread to 2010 and they are talking about it then.  Your claim that it has anything to do with this year's O&M reduction is flat out untrue and insisting that it is without any proof to the contrary doesn't help, violates the this site's policies and makes you look like you are arguing for argument's sake.

Idle chat in the mess is best kept there.  Unfounded rumours shouldn't be spread by people like us.

I'm with you that it sucks.  Just not for the same reasons.

 

[kratz]

[quote author=Crantor]
That is hearsay.  Or your opinion.  Do you have something to back that claim up because I have provided many links now as to why Halifax and other location are paying parking according to the rules.  Did you see a memo or something?  In fact you say that the decision was taken because of the reduction in O&M THIS YEAR but the decision to enforce this in Halifax happened some 5 years ago and delayed it so really what you are claiming is BS. 

This Belt tightening may play a part when the tap runs dry but when it should never have happened in the first place...
[/quote]

I'm not in Halifax, but one Facebook protest group on this issue, mentions the Town Hall meeting and the Base Command's answer. They quote the Capt(N) stating, he'd rather see paid parking and put a "boot" to immobilize cars to get the money instead of taxing members because he gets the money vice the government through taxes. Based on T4s I've had the past few years, and the discussion as it stands, the option to tax members for the parking value exists, but with government tightening we are now paying more with less.

 

[Remius]

I'm not in Halifax, but one Facebook protest group on this issue, mentions the Town Hall meeting and the Base Command's answer. They quote the Capt(N) stating, he'd rather see paid parking and put a "boot" to immobilize cars to get the money instead of taxing members because he gets the money vice the government through taxes. Based on T4s I've had the past few years, and the discussion as it stands, the option to tax members for the parking value exists, but with government tightening we are now paying more with less.

Facebook?  Really?  That doesn't back up anything more than what Drew said.  What someone heard what the base commander prefers is irrelevant.  The decision was made in 2010 and the rules have been around much much longer than that.  Yes, it is a hassle for the government to go the tax route but the government as a WHOLE (and has been for a while) is doing this not because DND has an O&M crunch this year.

So yeah, DND instalations owned by DND get the bonus of putting the money back in their own coffers while private industry makes money and the government collects no taxes.

 

[exgunnertdo]

Again, if I understand things correctly - there are two options available:

1.  Make you pay for parking
2.  Hit you with the value of parking as a taxable benefit.
.
.
.
Why, other than to maximize revenue, would the Crown choose to force people to pay for their parking, when a taxable benefit would be the more advantageous option to the members?

That's true if there is a market for paid parking where you work.  If there is no market for paid parking, the employer can let you park for free with no tax implications.

The "why" (don't know if that is the situation in Halifax) could be that DND (and other departments) wants to get out of the property management business, at least in large cities.  If the parking lot is owned by the government, then lease it to a management company and they control the parking, clear the snow, paint the lines, collect the parking fees.  We treat buildings in the NCR the same - they are often property managed by another company.

 

[Tibbson]

Technically i answered your yellow part by stating this is law not an excuse.

And no, I don't think its funny that they are applying this now because as I and others have stated, this isn't a new policy.  Not even for DND (I mentioned I had to deal with this ten years ago).  Some bases and facilities were not applying the rules and now they have to.  Simple as that.

You see this: The reason for pay parking in Halifax has more to do with the fact that the government cut O&M significantly this past year and they didn't give enough money to maintain infrastructure, so instead of paying to properly upkeep the base i.e. snow removal, paving costs, etc... they are offloading the cost onto the members.

That is hearsay.  Or your opinion.  Do you have something to back that claim up because I have provided many links now as to why Halifax and other location are paying parking according to the rules.  Did you see a memo or something?  In fact you say that the decision was taken because of the reduction in O&M THIS YEAR but the decision to enforce this in Halifax happened some 5 years ago and delayed it so really what you are claiming is BS. 

This Belt tightening may play a part when the tap runs dry but when it should never have happened in the first place...

Agreed, I got posted to Halifax 3 years ago and was told this was coming although base auth were still trying to avoid it.  Prior to that I had sat in meetings in Edmonton where the issue was discussed and how it would have to be applied to certain non-base llcations.  As much as I dislike the issue, its been a long time coming although many are just hearing about it now.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

That's true if there is a market for paid parking where you work.  If there is no market for paid parking, the employer can let you park for free with no tax implications.

The "why" (don't know if that is the situation in Halifax) could be that DND (and other departments) wants to get out of the property management business, at least in large cities.  If the parking lot is owned by the government, then lease it to a management company and they control the parking, clear the snow, paint the lines, collect the parking fees.  We treat buildings in the NCR the same - they are often property managed by another company.

Bingo, proceed directly to go and collect $200

 

[Remius]

Actually it's pay 200$  ;D

As per what I said in reply #233 of this thread.  And this isn't new.  Just new to some.

 

[cupper]

And if their traffic is worse than anything you've seen here it is likely because they provide so much subsidized parking...

Actually there are several reasons it is worse.

They don't know how to drive at the best of times, and throw anything out of the ordinary (like a 1/4" of snow) and all hell breaks loose.

Also there is the "I want need to drive my own car everywhere on my own so I'm not tied down to anyone else's schedule. It's just not convenient" factor.

And the biggest factor or them all, the rampant outward growth of the suburbs by developers with no associated increase in transit and roadway infrastructure. It's SIM CITY in real time.

To find "affordable" housing in the DC metropolitan area one needs to move further out in Maryland and Virgina, and the transportation resources have not kept up with the amount of growth in the area over the past two decades. Unless you are making a 6 figure income, you are looking at a minimum 30 to 60 minute commute into Arlington and Alexandria, forget the downtown core in DC. And the average is getting longer every year. 

Halifax is becoming a small scale version of this, and I am not surprised things are moving this way.

 

[Remius]

Actually there are several reasons it is worse.

They don't know how to drive at the best of times, and throw anything out of the ordinary (like a 1/4" of snow) and all hell breaks loose.

Also there is the "I want need to drive my own car everywhere on my own so I'm not tied down to anyone else's schedule. It's just not convenient" factor.

And the biggest factor or them all, the rampant outward growth of the suburbs by developers with no associated increase in transit and roadway infrastructure. It's SIM CITY in real time.

To find "affordable" housing in the DC metropolitan area one needs to move further out in Maryland and Virgina, and the transportation resources have not kept up with the amount of growth in the area over the past two decades. Unless you are making a 6 figure income, you are looking at a minimum 30 to 60 minute commute into Arlington and Alexandria, forget the downtown core in DC. And the average is getting longer every year. 

Halifax is becoming a small scale version of this, and I am not surprised things are moving this way.

Don't forget the 300-400$ cost of monthly transit fees as well.  Not a huge incentive even with the 130$ credit they can get to not drive.

 

[c_canuk]

I feel like I'm teaching a course...

Read the link.  Page 28 deals with PT and when it should be a taxable benefit.  and not everything you get is considered a taxable benefit.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/t4130/t4130-13e.pdf

And I feel like I'm conversing with the deliberatly obtuse.

My point was that under the same arguments made to justify taxing parking at market rates, can easily be used to tax us at market rates for access to gym facilities if there are fee based services in the area. Under current CRA regulations it says "You provide an in-house recreational facility and the facility is available to all your employees. This applies whether you provide the facilities free of charge or for a minimal fee."

My question is, how long will that last if a bunch of gym owners make a fuss about our gym access that is not at the market rate? We are already charging outsiders for access. What about areas where there are public pay toilets? Or, god forbid, the porta john companies. Where is the line drawn, what will they consider a taxible benifit next year.

Why does it seem that they want to tax and charge market rates but don't want to pay workers market rates? For that matter, what about proffesional Dues? Why is it that mess dues are not considered proffesional dues?

Don't just scoff "That's preposterous! the current regs clearly state blah blah blah" I'm not arguing current regs, I'm asking where the line in the future will be drawn, and if you disagree with me that the justification for taxing free parking could be used to justify charging for free PT, explain why it couldn't happen.

 

[Remius]

And I feel like I'm conversing with the deliberatly obtuse.

No worries.  Some people have a hard time understanding how the tax system works in Canada and might feel that way when confronted with it.  As for me I've nothing more to add to this thread that I already haven't.

Cheers.

 

[PMedMoe]

This topic is starting to circle the drain (IMO). 

:argument:


For those of you who don't want to "pay" to go to work, your employment after the CF may be limited.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This thread is about parking fees.

Get back on track please, or it will have to be locked as another jumbled thread, that doesn't speak to the title and wanders aimlessly like a drunk on Younge St.

No more warnings.

---Staff---

 

[Transporter]

This thread is about parking fees.

Get back on track please, or it will have to be locked as another jumbled thread, that doesn't speak to the title and wanders aimlessly like a drunk on Younge St.

No more warnings.

---Staff---

And the parking was great in each and every one of my cubicle farm tours 

 

[CountDC]

Before it gets locked.......

This really is nothing new as I first heard of it back in the 90's.  At that time I was in Halifax and it was put out that paid parking was coming, the union naturally fussed and it was "temporarily delayed".  Guess the delay is finally over. 

2006 I was posted to Ottawa and had to pay for parking - i believe it was a matter of which of the buildings you were at.  Some had freee parking while others you paid.

 

[Stoker]

I was talking to the formation Chief last week and there are still unanswered quesions on some of the details. He seemed to think that it may still be delayed until these details are worked out. I read the parking policy and its pretty straight forward, 5 yrs seniority, able to turn in pass while deployed, can't park in lot more than 24 hrs even though you're paying. Basically the same rules as before, even though you pay they can take your spot if they need it for a event. Pay for parking at the hospital, pay for parking for volunteers at the MFRC etc. I think they need to work these details out.

 

[Brasidas]

I was talking to the formation Chief last week and there are still unanswered quesions on some of the details. He seemed to think that it may still be delayed until these details are worked out. I read the parking policy and its pretty straight forward, 5 yrs seniority, able to turn in pass while deployed, can't park in lot more than 24 hrs even though you're paying. Basically the same rules as before, even though you pay they can take your spot if they need it for a event. Pay for parking at the hospital, pay for parking for volunteers at the MFRC etc. I think they need to work these details out.

I look forward to being pleasantly surprised when downtown armouries with reservist privates making $45 pre-tax *don't* end up having to pay $10 to show up for their weeknight parades. Volunteers paying sounds even more ridiculous.

 

[Tibbson]

I look forward to being pleasantly surprised when downtown armouries with reservist privates making $45 pre-tax *don't* end up having to pay $10 to show up for their weeknight parades. Volunteers paying sounds even more ridiculous.

I often use the services of the IWK Hospital here in Halifax and they have plenty of volunteers manning the info booths, assisting patients, providing child care services (and so on...) and every one of them has to pay for parking if they drive.  I'm sure, like any organization, they could always use more volunteers but they dont seem to be hurting for them because of parking fees.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

I often use the services of the IWK Hospital here in Halifax and they have plenty of volunteers manning the info booths, assisting patients, providing child care services (and so on...) and every one of them has to pay for parking if they drive.  I'm sure, like any organization, they could always use more volunteers but they dont seem to be hurting for them because of parking fees.

Well, hell, that solves DND's budget issues. We'll just make the reserves an all volunteer (as well as voluntary) army.

So glad we solved that issue.