Police Issued Weapons, Training and Equipment

[Kal]

Retention lll Holsters
    Never said they couldn't be drawn, just saying it takes a lot of practice with them to become proficient.  It's probably quite easy to draw your pistol stress free too, once you've got the hang of it, but what about when kneeling or laying on your back, side or belly?  Now, there are a lot of good cops out there who train hard and effectively for what they are to encounter, but what about those that have become a bit lazy, don't have the resources or just plain knowledge?  Can they draw their weapons from their wonder holsters as fast?  I can load a 30rd mag pretty fast, if I got the rounds clean and placed out neatly and in alignment, my hands are dry and warm, and I'm generally relaxed.  If I'm wearing gloves though, and the rounds are dirty and just placed loose in a box and someone is firing simunition at me, how fast can I do it then?  At least twice as long, if not three times. 

Kevin
    I know you have a lot of training, and are probably quite good at what you do by reading these threads, but if you were say not to use your holster and just stuck your weapon in your pants or pocket and tried drawing against your buddy, could you beat him?  Let's make it even more realistic and say after about a second you start drawing out of your pants your buddy can start....  That's all stress free too.  What takes him 2 seconds to draw relaxed may take him 4 under stress, but what takes you 3 seconds to draw relaxed, but 4 under stress because you have less to contend with via holster.  Now say you train harder and more that your buddy, bet you could get faster than him too.  Those are exaggerations, but you get the point.  Besides, if you stand right in front of him, and you both draw and he gets off a round a fraction of a second you do, but you both get off rounds, it's essentially a draw realistically speaking, and no one wins in a draw in a gunfight 'cause you're both dead...  How often does the bad guy draw his weapon right in front of a cop standing off with him?  10% of the time?  While the other 90% is the dude waiting in his car with a weapon out, coming up behind you, or at your side.  For those cops that do little training drawing, and drawing when someone is only in front of you, why spend most of your time training for that 10% and then train a little for rest of that 90%? 

So let's face it, most of the time when bullets start to fly the bad guy has his weapon out already and maybe even firing before you can react, why would I want to spend that extra 2 seconds trying to retrieve my weapon from my ret. lll holster when I could have gotten it out 2 seconds earlier with my thumb break holster.  The less time spent fighting is less chnace of me getting hurt or killed, right? 

Didn't mean to sound confrontation, but may have sounded like it.  If anything I want to learn from you guys with more experience in areas I don't have as much in. 

 

[Kal]

As to the tasers, they shouldn't be the stand alone primary defense tool.  They are a less than lethal weapon, not a non lethal weapon, meaning they still can kill someone.  Also the effects on the brain, heart and nervous system remain to be scene from such a weapon. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Just curious where you picked up this phrase? The taser is classified as a non-lethal weapon as far as anything I've ever read.
Quote,
They are a less than lethal weapon, not a non lethal weapon, meaning they still can kill someone.

...and what weapon can't? ???

 

[old medic]

"less than lethal" is a very common term.  A quick web search finds it everywhere, including US Justice Department Documents.

Taser classifies their weapon as non-lethal, but that's been a matter of serious debate for a few years now. 

 

[Slim]

I understand about the term "less than lethal" for the Taser. But lets face it, you can kill someone with just about any of the kit that police/corrections carry. The ASP (telescopic baton) can , in some cases, do fatal damage even when not striking vital areas of the body. Even restraining someone can lead to death, as happened here in Toronto not too long ago.

My concern with the taser is that the PC crowd will view this as a replacement for police issue firearms and the police will be stuck carrying the taser INSTEAD of the pistols and a back up long arm in the vehicle. That would not be acceptable under any stretch.

Slim

 

[Kal]

I was just merely stating that some people, mainly the untrained and/or uneducated, may think the taser is a non-lethal weapon, I realize that there are police officers and skilled soldiers on this site and I didn't feel I needed to go in depth with it because they have background knowledge of it already.  To the best of my knowledge pepper spray is classified as a non-lethal weapon, yet it has been documented that a few people have died from it....

 

[Kal]

Just saw this now, but Mr. Monkhouse you said you haven't read anything the detailed that taser as a less that lethal weapon but as a non-lethal weapon.  You go on to say what weapon can't kill someone.  Essentailly does that not make your statement for the Taser being non-lethal invalid?

 

[OatmealSavage]

That's absolutely ridiculous. I'd like to see his proof for that. An on duty cop not allowed to carry a loaded weapon, c'mon. The only cop like that, that I know, of was Barney Fife, Andy Griffon's deputy in Mayberry.

Enis (forget his last name) Deputy Sheriff of Hazzard County used to carry his pistol unloaded because the bullets made it heavy. He should have been issued a level III retention holster too because Daisy disarmed him all the time.

"The RCMP have done extensive testing in regards to penetration and over penetration.  They are available to LE agencies"
Operational Research is good, but interpretation is the hard part (or the fun part, if one enjoys pontificating on the internet). How many police shootouts take place at ranges beyond 10m? If the Cops are at all like the armoured car industry, most shootouts will take place at 2m. Speaking of close range, I'm told that Pen guards have seen inmates practicing the techniques required to take a pistol from a level two holster. One thing that sucks about carrying a pistol is it makes every physical confrontation a deadly force situation, you can't enjoy a bout of smashface without worrying about losing your gun. The cops do far more wrestling than they do quick draw gunfighting.

"The best argument to get rid of the shotgun happened during the north hollywood bank robbery.  If those officers were issued rifles with penetration power instead of shotguns, the 45mins fire fight would've last a lot less."
Agreed, mostly. They needed accuracy for head shots, not penetration. Each patrol car should should have a Ruger 9MM in addition to (not instead of) a shotgun.

 

[Slim]

Well, to address the question of shotguns verses accurate long arms for normal duty LE, I think its a questions(s) of training time and accountability (and money of course)

A shotgun takes very little time to learn, relatively speaking. A weapon such as a C-8 (AR15) takes much longer to learn and must be practiced. (as should all weapons!)

The officer using the long arm MUST be accurate or he/she risks hitting something/one with the round and causing liable damage to the emmidiate area that the gunfight took place in. There is also the question of over-penetration by the round itself. Even though the 5.56 ropund is a "tumble" round it could conceivably over-penetrate and hit something/one else close by or behind the origional target.  I suspect (although not sure) that there is probably a round specially designed for LE to correct this.

Then there is the question of training time as officers will have to spend far more of it on the range, adding to an already demanding schedule.

Just my thopughts.

Slim

 

[Kal]

So what if I said some the national guard soldiers patrolling the airports in the States carried unloaded weapons?

 

[Blackhorse7]

Coming straight from the horse's mouth, RCMP are still using the S & W 5946, with no plans that I know of to switch to the Sig.  I don't know where that information came from.  As a matter of fact, the ERT teams now carry a S & W as well, with the only difference from the standard issue being that it is black, and has no magazine disconnect safety.

Haven't heard anything about the shotguns getting replace either.  I'd like a carbine, but with proper training (and PRACTICE), the shotgun is seeing a big comeback as a duty weapon.  New tactical load have tightened shot patterns, and reduced recoil.  I know anytime I do a search warrant, I take the shotgun.  Looking down the barrel of that is like looking into your own grave.  My only beef if that all Police shotguns should have a 3 point sling to make transition to the pistol a non issue, and a tactical light.  The ones in the cars are just stock 870's.

 

[Slim]

So what if I said some the national guard soldiers patrolling the airports in the States carried unloaded weapons?

I'd believe it...But the police are different. I know personally of one Toronto Cop who doesn't load his pistol while on duty. (no names, no pack drill) Others who "can't be bothered" to clean their weapons on a regular basis. The vast majority only shoot once a year to requalify. Not their fault really its the system that they're working under...

Now you want to start issuing them military style weapons? Under those conditions it would be courting a disaster.

Slim

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Kal,
Just saw this now, but Mr. Monkhouse you said you haven't read anything the detailed that taser as a less that lethal weapon but as a non-lethal weapon.  You go on to say what weapon can't kill someone.  Essentailly does that not make your statement for the Taser being non-lethal invalid?

I never said the taser was totally non-lethal just that in the write-ups I have read it is listed as a non-lethal weapon,  what I stated is  basically what weapon is totally non-lethal?   ....baton, fist, arrow,mace.......while we're at it what substance is totally non-lethal or what........I think you can see where I'm going with this.

If I ever had to say a weapon was non-lethal it would be a taser gun.[and yes I've been  :crybaby:tasered/maced/pepper sprayed/gassed/ hit with an ASP and ceramic baton and "splashed" with a shield, none are fun experiences, but with the taser I was totally recovered and ready to be complient much more humanely than any others.]

 

[NorthernProtector]

The concept behind a "retention" holster is precisely that...to retain the firearm during scuffles and make it difficult if not impossible to be disarmed from the front, side or behind...exactly what's required for enforcement work.  Members are taught to read situations and watch for "cues" so getting into a quick draw gunfight should be seldom if ever required.  Having said that though, I agree that anyone using a retention holster should have confidence in any scenario that they can ready their weapon quickly.

Practise...Practise...Practise

For a combat situation, a retention holster is not practical nor would I think cost effective (they are VERY expensive).  In most combat situations, the sidearm is secondary or if it is primary it would be deployed before the dynamic entry.

As for the TASER discussion, as it is a "less than lethal" force option, a lethal force option will always be required.  What do you do if the threat is beyond the effective range, weather conditions preclude deployment or misfire.

Most of the Detachment Remington 700's (.308 rifles) in the RCMP have been recalled already and as far as I am aware are not going to be automatically replaced by C8's so I don't know where you are getting your information that the 870's are being replaced carte blanche.
 

 

[Kal]

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-c9mmsig.htm

way at the bottom, says RCMP uses the sig. though I would be more inclined to believe a RCMP officer over the site.

Mr. Monkhouse, thanks for the clarification, and i do agree no weapon or tool is totally non-lethal, basically the basis of my statements.

didn't happen to see if anyone mentioned the OPP using the sig either?

 

[Blackhorse7]

Kal...

I checked that link, and the information is indeed out of date.  PDS and ERT were using the Sig, but they are back to the tactical S&W in black.  Personally, I think a Glock or Sig would have been the way to go, but I don't make the decisions.  And the 9mm cartridge is a thing of the past in my eyes.  We should be using a .40, or even a .45.  Take a look at FBI HRT and LAPD SWAT.  Two of the best tactical teams in the world, and after extensive testing, they both went with variants of the good ol' 1911.

 

[Slim]

BH

How do you feel about using 10mm? Origionally developed for the FBI HRT (I believe) although they didn't seem to stay with it. I know from having fired it several times that it's a very hot round and has an extremely high barrel pressure that really puts stress on the weapon.

Slim

 

[Kal]

Blackhorse, couldn't agree with you more.  Units in the U.S. Army and Marine SOF use the 1911 as well.  That extra bit of speed and accuracy from the single action is well welcomed, too especially when your primary weapon has a misfeed.  Unless you went with something like a Para-Ordnance LDA trigger. 

 

[Blackhorse7]

Slim,

To be fair to the 10mm round, I've never fired it.  I have fired .45, and I tend towards it as it is a proven manstopper.  I admit I am also partial to the "cocked and locked" style of carry it allows, but I STRESS... that would only be practical with more consistent practice.  I have heard rumors that our qualification is moving towards a more tactical type shooting (instinctive, use of cover, etc), and that we may in future have to qualify every six months.  That's a big positive step, but it falls on the individual member to practice as well.  Every now and then, I will practice draws with an unloaded pistol to keep up the motor skills.

 

[Slim]

Likewise I have never fired .45 Cal and here its quite hard on the hands, although a proved man stopper. I would be interested to try one but don't really have access to any and won't buy my own due to all the silly paperwork involved.

For practice I use an   motorised airsoft pistol. (Glock 17) it's OK for practicing the points of the quick draw (I practice from the concealed position) but is no substitute for the real thing, just cheaper! ;D

Cheers

Slim