Recruits these days

[Infanteer]

Just because current social trends don't engender people to the arduous service of the Army doesn't mean their worthless for recruits.  I can guarantee you that cowboy veterans of the Boer War were saying the same thing about the pasty lines of factory workers that filled the ranks of the CEF in WWI.

We must ensure that our basic training institution is always adapting to the nature of its uptake.  Sure, recruits may be less physically hardy or attuned to the field - that is what the transition from citizen to soldier is all about. WO Sharp has the right idea with progressive PT requirements - remember, tear them down and then build them up.  The quality of the product entering the system does not matter, its the quality of the product that is turned out by the training establishment that does.

As well, you must take into fact that these disadvantages are offset by other advantages.  How many recruits need a serious introduction to operating a computer built around a windows operating system - argueably a important piece of kit in the information age?  Try doing that with a hardy peasent from the hills....

 

[Tpr.Orange]

Just seems like some slack troops with a lack of drive, that also possibly of being misinformed before signing on the dotted line. Not everyone is cut out for it. Its unfortunate they had to find that out on course. I remember on my bmq we lost 5 from my section alone. 1 because he thought he would be able to handle using a gun, and after finally being able to hold one and complete the pwt, he realized that he couldn't and left. we had 2 people leave with broken bones sustained during their own time. 1 Left because there was a family issue in regards to the family being from iran and they didn't agree with what was going on overseas. There are added pressures between the army and home life that can play on people. I think i remember our instructor saying 1 in about 7 dont finish their bmq. either from failing a test over and over or just leaving.

 

[Bert]

I find theres many generalizations in this thread.   Are posters referring to regular or
reserve candidates, recruits, and members, and generalizing across all bases
and units in the CF?   If so, recruit quality has been argued to death in other threads
and a search may turn up other perspectives.  

Being in the regular force (not a reserve point of view), it would be easy for me to
crap on new recruits and members to the unit from fitness to attitude. But I've been in
for a time, they haven't and its a learning process.   I remember going thru BMQ, seeing 60
different individuals sort themselves out, and whats left mesh into a platoon.   It takes
fitness, attitude, willingness to learn, teamwork, and perseverance to make a decent all
around member and it takes time to evolve over a career not just the first few months in.

Also, when in unit, leadership is vitally important to set the right tempo, lead by example,
sort out the deficiencies, and improve on it.   The Air Force has undertaken steps in
recent times as an example to improve individual combat skills, prepare members for
deployment, and increase unit fitness levels.   You should see what falls out of the wash.
Rather than complaining about it, the chain of command works on those that have difficulty
keeping up (whether attitude, fitness, or circumstance) and it gets sorted out.   I can
say that at least in my unit.

Its difficult to measure an individual from BMQ because they evolve over their careers
especially after QL3 and the importance of the chain of command to maintain unit
standard levels.   From another perspective, the quality may not be lacking in the
individuals, but in the units that lack cohesion or the method to maintain unit
fitness standards.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

Someone said earlier about how the CF is simply passing people to fill up the quotas... This is true if you ask me.

From talking to my Sgt whos done 2 tours overseas, most recently in afganistan, and got into the army in the 70s, ive talked to him about what his PLQ was like.If you failed ANYTING, a single task at ALL, you were kicked off the course, the end.He started his PLQ with 44 troops, and 16 passed.One guy at the very end tapped out of a 15km ruck march at the 13th km, after over a month long in the field or something like that, so close to the end, but he failed a task and they failed him. Thats just one example of the crazyness they had. Another MCPL from newfoundland I had on SQ whos been in for over 10 years had a similarly difficult time on his PLQ.

Fast forward to to today, a MCPL who did his PLQ this summer, told me every single person passed except for one out of 40, and they had several chances at the same tasks before they would be failed. Written warnings, verbal warning all that stuff didnt even exist on PLQs 25-30 years ago.This MCpl said his PLQ was a joke and some very poor troops were passed.

How do you go from a failure rate of almost 50% to almost 0% with many handicaps placed on the course?

The trend ive been noticing seems to be shifting toward quantity over quality. I shudder to think of what the PLQ will be like If I ever make it there.  :-\

 

[aesop081]

Someone said earlier about how the CF is simply passing people to fill up the quotas... This is true if you ask me.

I have argued this before and i will do it again.  I have seen the army end and the air force end of the spectrum and let me say that its not the case.  The course i am currently on has so far sent 3 students out of 8 home......the navs have sent home a guy home a month ago for failing his final check ride ( this is after a year-long course).  Inch and Zoomie can attest to the rate of the "choping block" during pilot training.  From what i have been told, the navy does things the same way ( i.e. NES Op QL6A).......

 

[chrisf]

Fast forward to to today, a MCPL who did his PLQ this summer, told me every single person passed except for one out of 40, and they had several chances at the same tasks before they would be failed. Written warnings, verbal warning all that stuff didnt even exist on PLQs 25-30 years ago.This MCpl said his PLQ was a joke and some very poor troops were passed.

How do you go from a failure rate of almost 50% to almost 0% with many handicaps placed on the course?

It seems to me that the problem is self-compounding... the troops that do PLQ go on to instruct troops in BMQ, who in turn go on to do PLQ, who in turn go on to teach PLQ... I got fairly lucky while doing BMQ... while the course wasn't nearly as hard as the course WO wanted it to be, it was still a fairly demanding course, and we had more then 1/3rd of the course quit (I know people who've had 2/3rds or more of their course quit, but what you've got to bare in mind, is that my BMQ was fairly recent... and a weekend course at that!). Some of the stuff we did may not have been 100% kosher as such, but all of the troops who were on it agree that our instructors were excellent, and nothing that happened even came close to "crossing the line". While I've only got limited experience with BMQ (Been through one, and have seen several from a support staff persepective), I'd definitly consider my course to fairly good model of what a BMQ should be in a "modern" army.

One thing that I particularly liked from our instructors was inspections... as the age old adage goes, "No matter how perfect everything is, they'l find somthing wrong...", and this was true, but after the first week or so, everytime we were jacked up for somthing during inspections, the reasoning behind it was generally explained to us ("Your canteen cup is dirty private... this is bad because... etc.... platoon... pick up your canteen cups... find a point on the wall... toss!"). The end result was a better understanding of why anal things exist within the military, and a large pile of kit in the corner that had to be fully sorted post-inspection.

As a side note, push-ups in snow that's almost as deep as your arms are long should be mandatory

 

[jmackenzie_15]

I forgot to mention one thing... well i just thought of it now, this is the reserves im speaking of, and from what I can discern, we get our budget depending on how many troops/attendance we have..... so, mo troops is mo money =p ... ahh the root of all evil.

 

[Gayson]

I will admit.

When I joined the army I had a hard time doing 20 push-ups.

After getting my trades qualifications I have become able to do 50 on a bad day 60+ on a good day.  In November I participated in a patrolling competition where I rucked over 40km.

Just because someone enters the army weak does not mean they will be bad soldiers.  As long as recruits are presented with a solid progression in PT, and have some motivation, they will be able to reach a good level of physical fitness.

Hey Shortbus, leave Pte. B alone.  Sure he screwed up some drills on the range, then fell asleep.  Just remember, he has a collection of M-16's in his house, don't make him angry.  >

 

[48Highlander]

I will admit.

When I joined the army I had a hard time doing 20 push-ups.

After getting my trades qualifications I have become able to do 50 on a bad day 60+ on a good day.  In November I participated in a patrolling competition where I rucked over 40km.

Just because someone enters the army weak does not mean they will be bad soldiers.  As long as recruits are presented with a solid progression in PT, and have some motivation, they will be able to reach a good level of physical fitness.

Hey Shortbus, leave Pte. B alone.  Sure he screwed up some drills on the range, then fell asleep.  Just remember, he has a collection of M-16's in his house, don't make him angry.  >

Some of us go the other way   when I joined I could do 70, now I'm down to 40ish.

 

[Canuck_25]

Well, as a potential recruit in 6 months, i would like to voice my oppinon on the "nintendo generation"

I agree with some that young people today are disillusioned about military life. One firend of mine quoted "when i graduate, im going to join the army and get drunk and shoot shit." Now, he has the impression of military life as in video games and movies. The true aspect of the influence on him and the rest of young people is postive for the military. Im sure the CF dosnt have posters demonstrate the hidden qaulities of military life (death of friend, hard work, yelling, ect) They post soldiers with guns, riding in jeeps, tanks and armoured viehcles, looking proud and professional.

As for fitness for applicants, right now, during my christmas break, I on wet days do a 10km hike through rough, jungle like terrain (lots of machete use) restoring old trails. On non wet days, i do a 6 lap run, climb the ladder to 8 or do 20 pushups (as far as i can go at the moment) and do one lap of an obstacle course. My ambition is to be selected as an infantry officer in the reserves (Rocky Mountain Rangers) to pay for UNI and for experience towards DOE.

As for officer selection to RMC, they seem to pick the cream of the crop sometimes. A lot of those fellows dont expect the life they saw on the brochure.

 

[Lost_Warrior]

Hey Shortbus, leave Pte. B alone.   Sure he screwed up some drills on the range, then fell asleep.   Just remember, he has a collection of M-16's in his house, don't make him angry.    

Not to mention a cousin with a Mig...oh yeah, and he heroically pulled someone out of a burning Iltis, in turn getting 3rd degree burns to his forehead, which oddly enough resembled a Wasaga sunburn...   :

 

[jmackenzie_15]

Hey Shortbus, leave Pte. B alone.  Sure he screwed up some drills on the range, then fell asleep.  Just remember, he has a collection of M-16's in his house, don't make him angry. 

Not to mention a cousin with a Mig...oh yeah, and he heroically pulled someone out of a burning Iltis, in turn getting 3rd degree burns to his forehead, which oddly enough resembled a Wasaga sunburn...  :

sounds like a certain someone I know from charlie company....  ;D

 

[aesop081]

  As for officer selection to RMC, they seem to pick the cream of the crop sometimes. A lot of those fellows dont expect the life they saw on the brochure.

What the heck are they expecting then ? 9 to 5 at the office...?

 

[Canuck_25]

What the heck are they expecting then ? 9 to 5 at the office...?

Sometimes i wonder.

Another point i would like to make is that all of my friends wake up at 8:30 am and go to school at 9 am. Now, i find that rather pathetic i rise out of bed at 6:45 am and ready to start the day.

Now, one fellow who left here to go to RMC had a 90% average in school. He was president of the student council, ect. I knew that he wouldnt make it long, mainly because this fellow never left his bedroom. Im dam surprised he passed the fitness test. He was what some might call a "nerd." Basically, he quit after the first year there and now he is at a civi UNI.

 

[chrisf]

Hey... I consider myself a nerd...

 

[PteCamp]

And I also consider you a nerd.... ;D 

 

[Fogpatrol 1.0]

Someone on my platoon quit on the third day when we were getting our gears.  The first thing he said to me in the cafeteria on the first day was "I think I did a huge mistake" referring to himself joining the army.  On the first inspection he freaked out and cried in front of the instructor.  I think his short time in training shocked him because he spent almost 6 weeks on pat platoon and he didnt have to swing his arms or wear his combats when walking to point A to B.

All this to say that people should do a little more research before joining the army.  It's not like the informations is hard to find, there's more to know than just how much you will get paid every month.


I'm also a huge video game nerd and can do 10 shin-ups and 35 push-ups...Cheers!

 

[Slim]

I remember what brought home the seriousness of the army on my GMT course (SYEP 1986).

One of the new recruits in my platoon suddenly decided that he didn't want to soldier no more (a relative term as we were only about 2 weeks into training then) and told the MCPL who was in charge of the course at that time, that he was going to leave and F%CK the army ect, ect...

The MCPL looked at this punk for a moment, then said quite calmly (and I quote) "Stand still sh*thead. You're under arrest" then simply pointed to several of us in the room and told us to "restrain" the guy in question.

We did.

The guy never went to jail but didn't last long either. The instructors later told us that he had a bit of a drug problem and had, at one point, threatened one of them with bodily harm. How he was removed (police involvement) I don't know but it sure brought home for allot of us just how serious the CF was (at that time anyway)

Slim

 

[Baloo]

Well, I think I will throw my two cents into the conversation. I think one of the problem's could be the nature of what the potential recruits are told both by the recruiters, and in their job description. I can remember when the Sgt. first came into my high school for enlistments, and I had the usual conversation, "So, what do you do in the Reserves?", having no real idea at the time.

"You seen Blackhawk Down?"

I nod.

"Well, yeah. You seen Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan, and We Were Soldiers?"

I nod again.

"That's what we in the infantry do. Fast line down from the choppers, shootin' machine guns, rocket launchers, attacking bunkers. We kick ass." Basically, he summed up all of the action sequences into the career.

Now, I realize that at one year, I am still pretty fresh. But I have yet to use a line down a tower, nevermind from a Griffon. Never used a M-72 or a Carl G. I think most Reservists nowadays never willl. But they never tell you about the 5 am reveille or the belt fed cock that occurs within the job either. Yes, I stuck through it, and it wasn't all that difficult (compared with Reg Force, or several decades ago) but I admit, for the first while, it was hard to adjust. They definitely do not mention everything in the pams. Nor should they. At the same time, I believe that more can be done to equip troops with the information they need, before wasting their time, and the CF's as well. Yes, I know the recruiters have quotas and they are good at what they do, but for the generation that learns of the military through movies, we are giving people the wrong impressions.

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

Not to mention a cousin with a Mig...oh yeah, and he heroically pulled someone out of a burning Iltis, in turn getting 3rd degree burns to his forehead, which oddly enough resembled a Wasaga sunburn...   :

sounds like a certain someone I know from charlie company....   ;D
Gayson, dont forget that his mom is a Vietnam AND Kuwait veteren who sustained a grenade attack and to this day has shrapnel imbedded in her thigh. Or that his house collapsed while we were in meaford due to rain.

I think the funniest was "For the love of god pte. Slow down" (he guns it for some reason) and all i see in my rear view mirror is this iltis leaping  4-5 feet in the air over a nice lip, only to come to a grinding hault due to the Crew Commanders hand brake. Mostly due to the fact that the CC had to get out to YAK before continueing the ride.

Dont get me wrong, I dont mind the guy, other than his comulsive lying. But the military isnt a place where people should be given a "break". You're either meant for it, or you arent. Yes, its "not nice" to tell them that their time is up and they just arent cut out for it, but then again, who the heck signed up for a "nice" Army anyways?

I've passed up Ex's, partially due to the fact that certain members were going to be in my call sign (I'm not alone in this). This picture is terribly wrong, because if an individuals performance is so drastically below standard that his fellow soldiers dont even feel confident with him on Ex, how can anyone operate with them overseas? Their total disregard for their job, people around them and their performance effects everyone around them. This only leads to extremely low morale, wrong attitudes, hostility and tension.

Dont take that the wrong way, I like everyone in my regiment (to different degrees mind you), but there are a select few that in all rights should never have made it past BMQ week 1. yet they were coaxed, pushed, and practically had their hands held throughout the course.


Rather than filling recruits heads with ideals of fast promotions, slots on JTF2, going overseas with your buddies to be a hero, or even getting drunk and having a good time, they should lean more towards the reward of hard work. Dont scare them, and tell them stories of whats to come, but make sure they are aware of the hard hard work that they are up against. Then, reinforce the fact, that all that work pays off in the end and the satisfaction of completing something in the military is rewarding in itself. Then, maybe the military will start drawing in some desirable recruits, rather than these Counter Strike Hardened kids with no grasp on reality. i think this quota attitude is whats doing the damage. Im not necessarily speaking of the Sgt's and Cpl.s that work in CFRC, Im speaking of the DND personel that draw up the recruiting, and plan the directrion that the CF will take on its recruiting campaign. truth will in most likely hood prove to be the best recruiting incentive yet.