Role of Officer vs job of NCM [Merged]

[George Wallace]

what i mean was, i have a better chance than other who try to work their way up thru the ranks. I understand that i would not become an officer overnight and that it does take time, however i may get in the trade which i know ill enjoy and make up my mind i may never want to be an officer, but i always have my degree to fall back on.  but either way i want to serve in the forces either as an officer or as ncm so either way is a win win for myself

As two others have posted, your degree guarantees nothing.  As a person who aspires to join the CF, either as a NCM or an officer, you will have to learn how to communicate clearly and concisely.  Right now I understand that you want to get into a Trade that you will enjoy when you are ill.  Your run-on sentence, lack of capitals and proper punctuation, spelling and grammar could make my understanding of what you are trying to say incorrect.  NCMs and officers in the CF must know how to communicate clearly in both the written and oral form as people's lives depend on clearly understood messages being passed.

Right now you are communicating like a High School dropout, and that will not do you any good in advancing your career in the CF, even as an NCM.

 

[Journeyman]

what i mean was, i have a better chance than other who try to work their way up thru the ranks. I understand that i would not become an officer overnight and that it does take time, however i may get in the trade which i know ill enjoy and make up my mind i may never want to be an officer, but i always have my degree to fall back on.  but either way i want to serve in the forces either as an officer or as ncm so either way is a win win for myself

I wish to offer my heart-felt condolences regarding your imagined military career.

You see, I cannot imagine any CF trade whose standards are such that they would recruit someone who finds a keyboard's <shift key> so completely incomprehensible.



Edit: If I spent more time in the Recruiting threads, George Wallace wouldn't have beat me...
...but I'd likely be a babbling idiot from reading some of the posts 

 

[George Wallace]

I wish to offer my heart-felt condolences regarding your imagined military career.

You see, I cannot imagine any CF trade whose standards are such that they would recruit someone who finds a keyboard's <shift key> so completely incomprehensible.



Edit: If I spent more time in the Recruiting threads, George Wallace wouldn't have beat me...
...but I'd likely be a babbling idiot from reading some of the posts 

As I passed on to you on another means, reading this type of "product" from someone having/claiming a higher education has a tendency to turn one's brain into mush, trying to figure out what they're saying.  This is enough to drive the person marking/assessing their work to drink. 

Next Thursday?

 

[Journeyman]

Next Thursday?

Response PM'd

 

[cnobbs84]

Last time I checked the Canadian Forces' standards do not include proper grammar on an internet forum. This is a place where people of a younger generation come and ask questions to those who are normally twice our age. I will admit that the older generation does pay a lot more attention to grammar because you did not learn to text before you learned to type. But before you decide to put anyone down on this site you may wish to think about where these people come from and their backgrounds. Granted GW you have been in the forces for a good many years and no doubt have tons of useful knowledge to pass on to those wishing to join the forces... but I do believe you underestimate the people who are writing these posts. I for one have graduated with honors from University and will be the first to admit that I get lazy when it comes to typing on the internet posts. So my suggestion to all senior members of this site is to do what you came here to do and advise the younger generation and get off your high horse when it comes to small things like grammar. If that seems too difficult to handle may I suggest that you leave this site to those are will answer questions with out huge amounts of sarcastic remarks.


Thank you 

 

[George Wallace]

Last time I checked the Canadian Forces' standards do not include proper grammar on an internet forum. This is a place where people of a younger generation come and ask questions to those who are normally twice our age. I will admit that the older generation does pay a lot more attention to grammar because you did not learn to text before you learned to type. But before you decide to put anyone down on this site you may wish to think about where these people come from and their backgrounds. Granted GW you have been in the forces for a good many years and no doubt have tons of useful knowledge to pass on to those wishing to join the forces... but I do believe you underestimate the people who are writing these posts. I for one have graduated with honors from University and will be the first to admit that I get lazy when it comes to typing on the internet posts. So my suggestion to all senior members of this site is to do what you came here to do and advise the younger generation and get off your high horse when it comes to small things like grammar. If that seems too difficult to handle may I suggest that you leave this site to those are will answer questions with out huge amounts of sarcastic remarks.


Thank you

Thank you very much for your opinionated retort. 

I have just spent three days marking written reports for five officers.  It took me less than one day to mark four of their papers, and over two days to mark the fifth.  My mind was turning to mush with trying to read through all the red ink I used on the grammatical, spelling and other errors in his writing that I had to seek other people's opinions on my marking.  All have agreed that his work is a dismal failure.  I get to brief him on it Monday morning.  He will have to rewrite the whole thing and hand it back into me by Thursday.

So, you think we are being "Dickheads" by demanding that people on this site do their best to maintain army.ca as a "professional" forum and improve their skills before they reach the stage where I may be assessing them for real and marking their work as a FAILURE?

By the way, all these officers have Degrees, as do I, and there should be no reason in the world that they can not write in a clear, concise, logical manner.

Just proof again that a Degree is a piece of paper more suited to be hung on a wall at home, not at work, and admired by family only.  It sometimes is not worth the paper it is printed on.  You may take that under advisement, as the Internet, is not anonymous.  Someone, somewhere, may research your past and find you here.  But, what the hey!  You know it all.  Thanks for coming out.

Oh! 

/rant.

 

[dangerboy]

Last time I checked the Canadian Forces' standards do not include proper grammar on an internet forum.

This is an unofficial web site not a CF website and the standard of the site is dictated by it's owner.  His standard is outlined in the Milnet.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html and includes guidelines such as:

You will not use excessive webspeak, or other shorthand styles of typing. Please use English or French to the best of your ability; this makes it easier for those who are not posting in their native language.

 

[George Wallace]

Oh!  Yes.  On going back to reflect on your comments above, I stand by this post, but am encouraged that you did put the extra effort into your most recent reply/retort.

As two others have posted, your degree guarantees nothing.  As a person who aspires to join the CF, either as a NCM or an officer, you will have to learn how to communicate clearly and concisely.  Right now I understand that you want to get into a Trade that you will enjoy when you are ill.  Your run-on sentence, lack of capitals and proper punctuation, spelling and grammar could make my understanding of what you are trying to say incorrect.  NCMs and officers in the CF must know how to communicate clearly in both the written and oral form as people's lives depend on clearly understood messages being passed.

Right now you are communicating like a High School dropout, and that will not do you any good in advancing your career in the CF, even as an NCM.

Again, thank you for putting that little extra effort into replying and displaying a much better form of writing.  I have already commented on the content and will leave it at that.

 

[Pusser]

Last time I checked the Canadian Forces' standards do not include proper grammar on an internet forum. This is a place where people of a younger generation come and ask questions to those who are normally twice our age. I will admit that the older generation does pay a lot more attention to grammar because you did not learn to text before you learned to type. But before you decide to put anyone down on this site you may wish to think about where these people come from and their backgrounds. Granted GW you have been in the forces for a good many years and no doubt have tons of useful knowledge to pass on to those wishing to join the forces... but I do believe you underestimate the people who are writing these posts. I for one have graduated with honors from University and will be the first to admit that I get lazy when it comes to typing on the internet posts. So my suggestion to all senior members of this site is to do what you came here to do and advise the younger generation and get off your high horse when it comes to small things like grammar. If that seems too difficult to handle may I suggest that you leave this site to those are will answer questions with out huge amounts of sarcastic remarks.


Thank you

I think the forum rules are pretty clear on this subject, but this is a pet peeve of mine, so I'm going to elaborate.

You'd better hope you never work for me, because I would crucify any of my subordinates for this attitude.  Grammar, spelling, punctuation and syntax are not "small" things.  They are the essential building blocks of communication.  I cannot emphasize enough that communication is an essential building block of operational success.  Literally thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen have died and battles have been lost because of poor communication.  I'm not talking about faulty equipment.  I'm talking about messages being misinterpreted because the originator didn't communicate effectively.

All members of the CF are under constant scrutiny.  Be it a letter, an email, a formal report or a casual conversation with your supervisor, your communication skills will be assessed at every turn.  In fact, it's so important that it gets mentioned in two sections of you annual Performance Evaluation Report (PER) - an essential building block of the promotion system.  Anything worth doing is worth doing well and admitting that you are too lazy to do that is not gong to win you any points anywhere, but especially not here.

 

[Ayrsayle]

"So my suggestion to all senior members of this site is to do what you came here to do and advise the younger generation and get off your high horse when it comes to small things like grammar. If that seems too difficult to handle may I suggest that you leave this site to those are will answer questions with out huge amounts of sarcastic remarks."



Wow. I won't even touch on the grammar (it has been addressed) but what makes you think the senior members of this board have nothing else to do besides answer your (or others) questions? I'm fairly sure they have other motivations besides being slapped for their opinions (which, surprisingly, they manage to express with more civility then they are addressed with.)

Think of these boards as someone's house - would you walk into someone's home, spit on their floor and demand to be fed whatever and whenever simply because they went to the effort of cooking dinner? If they had the gall to ask you wash your hands and eat with a knife and fork when sitting at their table - that is completely outrageous! If the members of this board offend you by insisting you follow the rules of the house (so to speak), you should seek advice elsewhere. Calling these forums yours does not make it so. There is a very large distinction between something you are welcome to access, and something you deserve.

While it is not only you, these kinds of statements cast a poor light on our generation in general.

 

[vhaust]

The ones with good grammar skills will notice grammar mistakes.
Someone writing a lengthy text with a laid back attitude is
bound to make typos and write run-on sentences, etc.
When I log onto the internet, if I can understand what I wrote, and the person on the receiving end understands the main points,
I think it would be a good idea to focus on the issues rather than grammar if the mistakes are not critical. Modern education emphasize more on concepts than grammar.
This is from my personal experience.
Some will disagree, perhaps grammar 1st, then concept.
But to some extent, grammar is crucial because I remember
doing a physics lab where the lab manual is hard to comprehend due
to poor grammar, rendering the concepts even harder to understand.
Now, this is not acceptable imo.

 

[vhaust]

After going back to the main menu, I realized that we're a bit off-topic.

 

[Journeyman]

Modern education emphasize more places more emphasis on concepts than grammar.

Perhaps that is because the education system is predicated on the painfully mistaken view that grammar and logical sentence structure would have been taught in grade school and reinforced in highschool.

 

[jwtg]

The ones with good grammar skills will notice grammar mistakes.
Someone writing a lengthy text with a laid back attitude is
bound to make typos and write run-on sentences, etc.

I'm sure that lengthy texts can be produced free of error.  Go to a library and you'll find many examples.  A 'laid back attitude' might not be the best way for someone to communicate that they would like to be taken seriously.

When I log onto the internet, if I can understand what I wrote, and the person on the receiving end understands the main points,
I think it would be a good idea to focus on the issues rather than grammar if the mistakes are not critical.

This is not consistent with the forum guidelines.  All are expected to make an effort to communicate effectively and using proper grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc.  A typo is not the same as disregard for the proper use of the English language.  Also spellcheck is quick and easy.

Modern education emphasize more on concepts than grammar.
This is from my personal experience.
Some will disagree, perhaps grammar 1st, then concept.
But to some extent, grammar is crucial because I remember
doing a physics lab where the lab manual is hard to comprehend due
to poor grammar, rendering the concepts even harder to understand.
Now, this is not acceptable imo.

I'm pretty sure that when I pursue 'modern education' I still get docked marks for poor writing.

 

[Pusser]

The ones with good grammar skills will notice grammar mistakes.
Someone writing a lengthy text with a laid back attitude is
bound to make typos and write run-on sentences, etc.
When I log onto the internet, if I can understand what I wrote, and the person on the receiving end understands the main points,
I think it would be a good idea to focus on the issues rather than grammar if the mistakes are not critical. Modern education emphasize more on concepts than grammar.
This is from my personal experience.
Some will disagree, perhaps grammar 1st, then concept.
But to some extent, grammar is crucial because I remember
doing a physics lab where the lab manual is hard to comprehend due
to poor grammar, rendering the concepts even harder to understand.
Now, this is not acceptable imo.

What gives you the idea that there is a choice between grammar and concept?  Not everything in life involves choices.  This is one of those cases where you have to do both!  Understanding a concept or formulating an idea is simply not enough.  You also have to be able to communicate that idea properly in order to be effective.

I boggles my mind that there is an element present which seems to feel that the combined advice of many of us with many years of experience is off base.  Someday, when you are the CDS, perhaps you can change the way we do things, but in the meantime, I suggest you take heed of the warnings of your elders and learn from them.  You might also keep in mind that in order to one day become CDS, first you must get past us!

 

[vhaust]

Reading from the replies, I think I have made myself unclear due to poor grammar.
What I am trying to say is some guys posting on this forum are youngsters,
or guys with a relatively small background in education under the English system,
and I believe that a certain degree of tolerance for grammatical mistakes should be endowed.
On the other hand, a lab manual or textbook with sentences that are hard to comprehend should
receive a smaller portion of tolerance because they are expected to be professionals,
especially if the author of the manual has a Ph.D in front of his name.
Also, these manuals are most likely reviewed by publishers and that should add
an extra filter to miscommunications.
Moreover, a good portion of the people from Quebec are educated under the French system, and if they come to this forum to ask a question,
assuming that they are not too familiar with the English language, they may be intimidated. The same goes for native English speakers in a French speaking forum/region.
A certain degree of tolerance should be assumed so they can remain in harmony.

 

[jwtg]

Reading from the replies, I think I have made myself unclear due to poor grammar.

An interesting thing to admit, given your position on the matter.

 

[aesop081]

Reading from the replies, I think I have made myself unclear due to poor grammar.

:rofl:

 

[mariomike]

Reading from the replies, I think I have made myself unclear due to poor grammar.
What I am trying to say is some guys posting on this forum are youngsters,
or guys with a relatively small background in education under the English system,
and I believe that a certain degree of tolerance for grammatical mistakes should be endowed.

From another topic: "As a Military related site, we try to encourage "professionalism" and good writing skills.  Admittedly some on this site don't have the education, or perhaps their English skills being a second or third language, and we try to accommodate them; but when someone comes on claiming to be 'educated' we do expect more from them.":
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/87494/post-853986.html#msg853986

 

[Journeyman]

.....some guys posting on this forum are youngsters, or guys with a relatively small background in education under the English system,
and I believe that a certain degree of tolerance for grammatical mistakes should be endowed.

Notwithstanding I believe you mean "entertained" rather than "endowed," you honestly believe that the best course of action is to dumb down the responses rather than push for more effort from the questioners? [Please consider this to be a rhetorical question; I have no desire to be pen-pals] Society will be much further ahead that way.    :facepalm:

...especially if the author of the manual has a Ph.D in front of his name.

Degrees and honourifics held follow the name; that's why they're called postnominals.

A certain degree of tolerance should be assumed so they can remain in harmony.

You haven't the vaguest idea of how much tolerance is already displayed by the senior membership here -- some by merely avoiding the Recruiting threads, which I will do again momentarily.

But heaven forbid some 18-year old's ability to self-actualize, or his zen placement within the cosmos, is diminished by something read within an online forum.  :