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Role of Officer vs job of NCM [Merged]

  • Thread starter Thread starter Argyll 2347
  • Start date Start date
Your correspondence is degenerating to an unfortunately rude tone. Perhaps I offended you with my suggestion that your sojourn in university was indeed wasted. Certainly I seem to have irritated you with my position which you characterize as vague. However, let me try to respond once more. If you choose not to read what I have said here or elsewhere, that is, I suppose, your matter.

To begin with, it is abundantly evident to me that we share a different view of the necessary attributes of officers. Yours seem to be quite restricted, and rather "unit-centric": a point of view that I suggest was typical of the Canadian Army until quite recently and traceable, I would argue, to our military cultural descent from the British. I do not quarrel with the need for solid leadership skills at the levels of battalion and below: I have spent 18 of my 30 years of service in Infantry battalions, as both an NCO and an officer, including several operational tours. What I believe is that the bigger Army, and the joint sphere beyond that, demands more of officers, perhaps moreso than it ever did, and that these demands are best met by an officer corps that has had the mental preparation that I believe can best be delivered through post secondary education. I do not believe that merely knowing TTPs, or being able to launch a company assault, or plan a live fre range, are ends in themselves. They are tools, acquired as steps along the way. Of course the posession of these skills and of the experience gained in their application will inform the officer's viewpoint in later years, and may serve to keep him firmly grounded. They will not, in and of themselves, guarantee an officer corps that has the mental agility, flexibility, desire to learn and capacity to reason that are all required of higher commanders and staff officers. Indeed, there probably is no guarantee of such an outcome. That notwithstanding, I remain convinced that PSE is a valuable tool to achieve that outcome. I am sorry if you do not share my opinion on this, or if you feel you must belittle what I have attempted to present. I think we have reached an impasse. Cheers.
 
Ok - went back to look and this is all I found:

I would like to think that higher education is a lens, one which focuses innate abilities for thought, reasoning, and expression. The lens of PSE helps the individual recognize and develop those capabilities, perhaps accelerating what they would likely accomplish on their own within a supportive learning environment. Without the lens those attributes still exist, but may take longer to manifest themselves, or simply never have cause to do so if the spark of encouragement or desire never occurs. And like any optical lens, if the 'source' isn't bright enough to start with, the lens will have little effect against the background.

As has been stated, some officers got caught out when the goalposts moved. While the potential benefits of PSE are recognized (I say potential because some never live up to the touted benefits of higher education anyway), no attempt has been made to allow the identification of those attributes in individuals with or without PSE. One is taken to presume the other, and it hardly needs reiteration to state that education doesn't necessarily equal intelligence.

I don't agree that University broadens the mind, certainly not for the majority of undergrads in non-technical or professional streams.    At least not at the U of C, where class sizes precluded anything but writing a single 10 page paper per class and "teaching to" the midterm and final exam.

I think perhaps those who champion "broadening of the mind" via university are mistaking it for the natural accumulation of maturity which come with advancing years.

You can broaden the mind with On Job Training, either as an NCM or junior officer, with much less hassle and in fewer than four years, plus have practical benefits of doing that "broadening" directly in your field.

If the only reason you have for saying that a university degree is a necessary prerequisite for holding the Queen's Commission because it "broadens the mind", I'd have to say that is a decidedly weak argument to make.

Was it nbk who argued that illegal drugs were another way to "broaden the mind"?  So what is the difference?  And should illegal drugs become part of the training of Canadian officers?

Sarcasm aside, I'm looking for a deeper explanation of "broadening the mind" and some idea of what practical benefits a university degree will give the officer.  The ability to write 10 page papers on demand and stay awake in 3 hour once-weekly lectures are not what I would include among them.  Though I don't suppose those abilities would hurt either. ;)

I'm writing this before reading your latest reply, I am at work, so I'll need time to look over your last remarks and think over a proper response.
 
Seems to me that the arguments will not get solved here, because you are both looking at PSE from different angles.  Michael is looking at it the way most young people look at it.  Something to do, not because you have to, but because it is expected.  Parties, last minute cramming, and so on will not an officer make.  On that point, I totally agree with Michael.

However, from the other angle.  PBI went there as a mature student, eyes wide open, knowing what he wanted.  His thinking, or rather, perspective changed, and he sees this as beneficial to a military career.  I cannot see much of an argument against PBI here, either.

The obvious (to me) solution is to apply the same methods used in several other countries.  There are countries that accept University trained personnel into their Forces, but never in to the combat arms.  Combat Arms soldiers that are identified fairly early on are tapped, and after a period of time, are given some officer training, and attached to a sub-unit.  If the person works out, and has proven their ability to lead sub-units, then and only then does the army pay for University.

I don't know how many young officers going through RMC have purposely failed courses in their trade, so they can chose another profession.  We had one going through armour phase training as a Captain, between waiting for courses, and failing trades training, he met the time requirements for promotion.  I know that this is off topic, but it does not make sense to me to spend thousands of scarce dollars putting a person through RMC who is not a proven leader.  Make the person prove himself first, then put him through RMC.  At least for the Combat Arms!
 
pbi said:
Your correspondence is degenerating to an unfortunately rude tone.

Nonsense, I'm holding you to a higher standard by suggesting you back up your statements with facts or detailed descriptions of what you're talking about.

Perhaps I offended you with my suggestion that your sojourn in university was indeed wasted.

Could have sworn I stated from the beginning my opinion that my university experience was largely unnecessary.  So since you are agreeing with me, I find it hard to take offence. ;)

To begin with, it is abundantly evident to me that we share a different view of the necessary attributes of officers. Yours seem to be quite restricted, and rather "unit-centric": a point of view that I suggest was typical of the Canadian Army until quite recently and traceable, I would argue, to our military cultural descent from the British. I do not quarrel with the need for solid leadership skills at the levels of battalion and below: I have spent 18 of my 30 years of service in Infantry battalions, as both an NCO and an officer, including several operational tours. What I believe is that the bigger Army, and the joint sphere beyond that, demands more of officers, perhaps moreso than it ever did, and that these demands are best met by an officer corps that has had the mental preparation that I believe can best be delivered through post secondary education. I do not believe that merely knowing TTPs, or being able to launch a company assault, or plan a live fre range, are ends in themselves. They are tools, acquired as steps along the way. Of course the posession of these skills and of the experience gained in their application will inform the officer's viewpoint in later years, and may serve to keep him firmly grounded. They will not, in and of themselves, guarantee an officer corps that has the mental agility, flexibility, desire to learn and capacity to reason that are all required of higher commanders and staff officers. Indeed, there probably is no guarantee of such an outcome.

I don't think I'm arguing with any of this.

That notwithstanding, I remain convinced that PSE is a valuable tool to achieve that outcome.

Yet feel no reason, or perhaps have no ability, to say why.  Learing 10th century Russian history or 14th century Italian religious art (or more importantly, lack of the same) is going to define how successful an officer is going to be in the profession of arms?

I learned more about intelligent debate, discourse, constructing arguments, and forming theses in two years of gabbing on the internet than I did in seven years of university.  I am all for well-rounding of individuals, but if you've honestly looked at the curriculum requirements for a general studies degree these days, or the level of scholarship that passes in universities, I don't see how you can point to any kind of honest benefit to the prospective officer that couldn't be replicated, or replaced, by four years of doing something else.  Apprenticing in a business setting, perhaps, or acting as an aide de camp to a civil servant, get a look at the government/political side of the house?  Four years of keggers, ski club and multiple choice midterm exams seems not really a necessary way to go.
 
Four years of keggers, ski club and multiple choice midterm exams seems not really a necessary way to go.

Well, if that's what university means to a person, I suppose not. I didn't mean that to me. Perhaps Lance Wiebe is right in his observation: our divergent experiences make us irreconcileable. Long may you hold your opinions. Anyway, its 2300hours here and I've been in this damned ops centre all day. I'm shutting down now. Cheers.
 
Lance Wiebe said:
Seems to me that the arguments will not get solved here, because you are both looking at PSE from different angles.   Michael is looking at it the way most young people look at it.   Something to do, not because you have to, but because it is expected.   Parties, last minute cramming, and so on will not an officer make.   On that point, I totally agree with Michael.

However, from the other angle.   PBI went there as a mature student, eyes wide open, knowing what he wanted.   His thinking, or rather, perspective changed, and he sees this as beneficial to a military career.   I cannot see much of an argument against PBI here, either.

Isn't the difference really the level of maturity of the student, and not the institution itself?  So what was it, specifically, that university trained pbi to do different or better than had he not gone to university?  And are these types of "lessons" really going to be crucial to an officer's success, and will every officer that goes to university learn them, with officers not going to unversity not learning them?

The obvious (to me) solution is to apply the same methods used in several other countries.   There are countries that accept University trained personnel into their Forces, but never in to the combat arms.   Combat Arms soldiers that are identified fairly early on are tapped, and after a period of time, are given some officer training, and attached to a sub-unit.   If the person works out, and has proven their ability to lead sub-units, then and only then does the army pay for University.

And again, the question is, what does the university education give to the officer?  That seems to be the whole crux of the question yet no one is willing to answer it.  Like the same tired debate about the regimental system.

"Well, the regimental system has been around for centuries and it's a great tradition and we always win our wars with it."

"Yeah, but they abandoned it in World War One and we still had the best army on either side of the line.  So what is so great about it that makes it unassailable?"

"Ummm....."
 
pbi said:
Four years of keggers, ski club and multiple choice midterm exams seems not really a necessary way to go.

Well, if that's what university means to a person, I suppose not. I didn't mean that to me. Perhaps Lance Wiebe is right in his observation: our divergent experiences make us irreconcileable. Long may you hold your opinions. Anyway, its 2300hours here and I've been in this damned ops centre all day. I'm shutting down now. Cheers.

I wasn't in the ski club and didn't attend a single party.  I also got more As than D's, but more B's than A's. 

Anyway, a bit of a pity that you have nothing significant to say to support your position.  Perhaps a good night's rest will allow you to present something substantial, I'll look forward to it.
 
Michael Dorosh said:
I have two BAs, and honestly, they could bring them up with the rations these days, at least the ones I got at the U of C were relatively valueless with the exception of that little piece of paper you get, which means UPS et al is more likely to hire you since it presumably means something.

But it doesn't. I skated through 7 years of University barely having cracked a book - in many cases without even buying the text books. I sucked at math and didn't like doing complex problems, so I took courses where I didn't have to think too much. It was three years before I knew what a "thesis" was. I studied for exams on the day of the exam, on the bus going to school. I got As in some clases, rarely less than a C+ in the rest - I believe two classes in those seven years, both of them math classes which I didn't realize there was no requirement for me to take.
As with most courses that the military may send soldiers on, you can only get out of university what you put into it.  If you only make the effort to get a pass or only the effort to get the "sexy" grades, then you may miss a lot of what was there for you.

Michael Dorosh said:
Learing 10th century Russian history or 14th century Italian religious art (or more importantly, lack of the same) is going to define how successful an officer is going to be in the profession of arms?
The content of these courses will add very little to one professional military development.  However, if intelligent learning materials are provided then the university student will be exposed to complex opposing arguments that have solid foundations in truth.  This builds the tools to decipher fact from opinion and to formulate ones own intelligent views.

Michael Dorosh said:
I don't see how you can point to any kind of honest benefit to the prospective officer that couldn't be replicated, or replaced, by four years of doing something else.  Apprenticing in a business setting, perhaps, or acting as an aide de camp to a civil servant, get a look at the government/political side of the house?
I don't see any one other approach that can provide as comprehensive a coverage of the benefits of university (sure some other approaches will cover some of the benefits).  I can also not think of any other approach that offers the benefits in as structured an format.  Lastly, if anyone were to take any route other that university and approach that route with the same effort that you ascribe to university students, then they would be just as far behind (if not farther).    
 
To begin with, it is abundantly evident to me that we share a different view of the necessary attributes of officers. Yours seem to be quite restricted, and rather "unit-centric": a point of view that I suggest was typical of the Canadian Army until quite recently and traceable, I would argue, to our military cultural descent from the British. I do not quarrel with the need for solid leadership skills at the levels of battalion and below: I have spent 18 of my 30 years of service in Infantry battalions, as both an NCO and an officer, including several operational tours. What I believe is that the bigger Army, and the joint sphere beyond that, demands more of officers, perhaps moreso than it ever did, and that these demands are best met by an officer corps that has had the mental preparation that I believe can best be delivered through post secondary education. I do not believe that merely knowing TTPs, or being able to launch a company assault, or plan a live fre range, are ends in themselves. They are tools, acquired as steps along the way. Of course the posession of these skills and of the experience gained in their application will inform the officer's viewpoint in later years, and may serve to keep him firmly grounded. They will not, in and of themselves, guarantee an officer corps that has the mental agility, flexibility, desire to learn and capacity to reason that are all required of higher commanders and staff officers. Indeed, there probably is no guarantee of such an outcome. That notwithstanding, I remain convinced that PSE is a valuable tool to achieve that outcome. I am sorry if you do not share my opinion on this, or if you feel you must belittle what I have attempted to present. I think we have reached an impasse. Cheers.

Excellent post sir, agree 100%.


Michael

As I said before, I don't agree that any form of PSE is required for the health of the professionalism of the Officer Corps; as I wrote in my post, this education must be geared towards the military profession.  This form of education that PBI and I have advocated is essential as it is the "other half" of the professional officer.  It is all great that an Officer can memorize the tedious orders templates, command a company raid, or administer the unit he is responsible for, but that is merely one aspect of a professional Officer.

Do we grant Medical Doctors addmission to the Medical Profession simply on the grounds that he can do a good job with the scalpel or do we admit Lawyers to the Bar solely on the grounds that they can impress a jury with a good argument?  No, we don't.  As members of professional bodies they are expected to belong to a unique body of knowledge, to contribute to this body, and to understand the ideas and the history behind the techniques that they will use in the conduct of their duties.  These are the rigorous mental abilities required of a professional to put him above an amateur who merely takes soldiers to the field and leads them around shooting things up; the professional recognizes that the profession of arms exists within a constantly evolving field of knowledge and he contributes to his adaptation in order to ensure that the fighting force he belongs to can consistently deliver superior performance in the field of battle.

Sure, there will be those who simply like to practice their profession "in the trenches" so to say.  Some Doctors will want to simply open up a family practice while some lawyers are content to moving up to a small town judge position.  Likewise, some Professional Officers will desire only to serve at the unit level and below, mainly focusing on training and leading troops into combat.  That is admirable, and we must give them the opportunity to do so, however, they must also receive a military education in order to ensure that they are fully aware of the profession in which they operate in.  However, others in the profession will give full passion to the growth of their profession; Doctors will do medical research and write into the New England Journal of Medicine; Lawyers will take part in Government Committees for Legal Reform, practice law at the international level, or rise to the position of the Supreme Court.  The "cream of the crop", so to say, are the ones that we send to Command and General Staff College and the War College.  They will rise to Generalship, they are the ones who contribute to military thought and define doctrine, and serve on the planning staffs for operational and strategic execution of the Army Mission.

In the end, the goal of a military education is to ensure the maximum level of the military during peacetime so that it is prepared to fight in war.  Compare the performance senior commanders in the Second World War of senior commanders from a professional Army, the German Heer, and two amateur ones, the Canadian and the American Armies.  Even though forbidden by Versailles, Von Seekt was able to preserve the professional level of the German Army through an unofficial Kriegsacadamie run at the unit levels.  As a result, the German senior leaders went into the War fully prepared to fight at the operational and strategic level in Europe despite all attempts by the allies to disable them professionally.  Look at the successful Generals at the beginning of the war, most of them were excellent commanders throughout the war, and though often replaced on the fickle grounds of Hitler's opinion, they often excelled where ever they were put.  Guderian, Model, Von Balck, Rommel, Von Manstein.  Even Kesselring, an Air Force General with a professional military education, was able to conduct a brilliant delaying action in Italy that tied down a good portion of the Allied forces there and defeated any Allied idea of taking Germany over from the "soft underbelly" of Europe. We could go on and on naming excellent military commanders; the fact remains that they were drawn from an institution of military professionalism that believed that in order to consistently be successful in war you needed to institutionalize excellence.  One of the core foundations of this excellence was a military education.

Compare the American or Canadian Armies to this system.  There was constant turbulence at high level command within both these Armies.  Marshall, as a Brigadier General, was taken of the heads of many other officers to become the Chief of Staff.  He had to sack hundreds of Generals in order to get rid of amateur cobwebs that had taken over the Army in the interwar period.  Even then, he could not ensure a fully professional fighting force led by professional fighting Officers, his Army's first challenge at Kasserine was an abject failure against a hounded German Army in retreat from Egypt.  The Canadian Army was no different.  Most of the history I have read seems to come to the conclusion that in general the performance of senior Canadian leaders was sub-par.  Of course, military genius will rise up under the crucible of fire to lead forces to victory.  The US possessed plenty of these 30 year old Generals in the form of Gavin, Abrahms, etc, while for Canada Hoffmeister was a good example.  However, this is what a professional system seeks to avoid; awaiting military genius to rise up and lead your Army to victory.  The Allies were fortunate in World War II to have a preponderance of material advantage and the fact that the Soviet Union was tieing down a majority of the combat power of the German Army in order to allow their forces to develop the leadership required for victory.  Perhaps we will not have that luxury at a future date.

Bottom line, I believe we need a fully professionalized Officer Corps.   Although it may seem redundent to have such a high degree of training at low levels such as company command, we need an excellent field with which to draw our Brigade Commanders, our members of the Defence Staff, and ultimately, our Chief of Land Staff and CDS with.   By allowing the best sorts of professionals to these levels, we can have tehir calibre of professional excellence filter down into the lower levels of command, ensuring that even the newest Lieutenant will be a true professional fighting Officer.

I don't agree that University broadens the mind, certainly not for the majority of undergrads in non-technical or professional streams.   At least not at the U of C, where class sizes precluded anything but writing a single 10 page paper per class and "teaching to" the midterm and final exam.

I, for one, am critical of the way universities seem to attempt to test the knowledge that one has gained.  I believe it has a very subjective nature to it.  As I alluded to in my original proposal for a professional education, "Many of these courses will involve work outside of the conventional classroom setting using TEWT's, officer "tours", and visiting other places relevent to the course of study."  Obviously, the military education cannot rely on its Officer Cadets turning in one term paper on a subject and making a few classes a week.  RMC and its professional instructors will have to think of innovative ways of delivering and evaluating a military education that promotes independent thought in the officers (I can think of a bunch right now).

I think perhaps those who champion "broadening of the mind" via university are mistaking it for the natural accumulation of maturity which come with advancing years.

True, a certain level of maturity is required to attempt to learn beyond the highschool level.  This is why I feel many 18 year olds have a hard time with university; they receive such a shock my living on their own and being immersed into a different environment that they cannot focus on their studies.  Result: universities must "dumb down" there first and second year material in order to avoid failing many students.

Perhaps this a further argument in favour of my proposal to have all officers drawn from the ranks.  In order to ensure that the candidates come into the RMC on the best possible footing to receive a professional education, basic training and two years in the ranks (tempered with training opportunities and perhaps deployment on operations) will mean that the Officer Corps is getting a better supply of "raw clay" on the whole because they have been given the time to develop a mental framework with which to approach a military education?

What do you guys think?

You can broaden the mind with On Job Training, either as an NCM or junior officer, with much less hassle and in fewer than four years, plus have practical benefits of doing that "broadening" directly in your field.

You can only understand the elements of the military profession to a certain degree in the field.  If you limit your professional development to this, your essentially "reinventing the wheel".  An post ex-AAR can only deliver so much in terms of benefits.  A higher form of professional debate and discussion is needed to draw the most from an Army's experience.  This is how the Prussians were able to maintain a superior military force going into the Wars of Unification in the mid-1800's, despite having not fought a war for 45 years.  They ensured that their leaders were professionals, keen students of the art of war who studied historical case studies, observed how other armies were doing things, and constantly reevaluated their own tactics and techniques.  The military profession can demand no less.

If the only reason you have for saying that a university degree is a necessary prerequisite for holding the Queen's Commission because it "broadens the mind", I'd have to say that is a decidedly weak argument to make.

I have argued that a military education is and essential foundation of a highly professional Officer Corps.  Hopefully, I am getting somewhere with my posts.  I know you are an avid reader Michael, and if you are still skeptical Michael, I can recommend or lend you the material that I've been looking at that I am getting my ideas from.

Was it nbk who argued that illegal drugs were another way to "broaden the mind"?  So what is the difference?  And should illegal drugs become part of the training of Canadian officers?

That's silly, and you know it Michael.

Sarcasm aside, I'm looking for a deeper explanation of "broadening the mind" and some idea of what practical benefits a university degree will give the officer.  The ability to write 10 page papers on demand and stay awake in 3 hour once-weekly lectures are not what I would include among them.  Though I don't suppose those abilities would hurt either.

Okay, at least you acknowledged that that was silly.  I feel I've answered your questions on how we must educate the military professional.  Remember, the endstate is an officer that knows how to think, not what to think.
 
People go through university for a host of reasons.  At the end, some people have merely learned "what to think", but some have learned "how to think".  The university imposes discipline on learning "how to think".  That is the primary advantage - call it broadening of the mind.  The secondary advantage is that it exposes the student to the widest possible array of political and social cultures - call it broadening of the attitude.  Both will serve the senior officer (ie. field grade and above) well.  Some may think university unnecessary to obtain these qualities.  However, I've met a few officers who have become remarkably narrow-minded by virtue of being practically cloistered within purely military culture since graduating high school.  We may be having difficulty getting Canadians to understand the military, but we can entirely control whether the military understands Canadians.

Each of us can argue that in some way we have learned "how to think" which is not attributable to university education.  Not everyone will deliberately pursue that or stumble over it by accident.  Some need a gentle push.

University PSE is the default because we don't have a 3- or 4- or 5-year "Bachelor of Combat Arms" program at RMC.  Perhaps if we grafted the equivalent of 4 years of selected psychology, political and social "sciences", history, etc onto the mandated staff college courses we could achieve the same ends.
 
McG said:
As with most courses that the military may send soldiers on, you can only get out of university what you put into it.  If you only make the effort to get a pass or only the effort to get the "sexy" grades, then you may miss a lot of what was there for you.

This is obviously the case, let's take this as a given.

The content of these courses will add very little to one professional military development.  However, if intelligent learning materials are provided then the university student will be exposed to complex opposing arguments that have solid foundations in truth.  This builds the tools to decipher fact from opinion and to formulate ones own intelligent views.

Not to be rude, but so what?  Combat operations are not arenas of debate they are hostile environments where orders are given and humans die.  Putting aside combat operations, ask ourselves - what do officers really need to know?  Looking at a typical reserve unit, say, ok you need guys running the kit shop, handling the politics of the regimental senate, liasing with the ladies auxiliary, talking to the press, convincing brigade that you really do need the little red wagon on your requisition for training, a million things.  Give me an example of complex opposing arguments in a young officer's life, and demonstrate that university education was responsible for him making the right decision.  The argument here is that you MUST have this four years otherwise you cannot possibly be an officer.  Demonstrate why.

I don't see any one other approach that can provide as comprehensive a coverage of the benefits of university (sure some other approaches will cover some of the benefits).  I can also not think of any other approach that offers the benefits in as structured an format.  Lastly, if anyone were to take any route other that university and approach that route with the same effort that you ascribe to university students, then they would be just as far behind (if not farther).    

Again, this is a given, and again, what benefits are you talking about?  The ones from para 2?  How about some concrete examples of how university education will benefit a young officer.  Make up a hypothetical, I'd in fact prefer that, or use personal experience.  Either or.
 
So all I am getting here is that University is a litmus test as to the intelligence of prospective officers, at least as far as university degrees are structured now.

Infanteer, I am dead serious about nbk's "mind broadening" statement.  Explain the difference to me.  It's a vague concept which we are probably defining differently, at least for purposes of this discussion. :)

Honestly, we all are saying there are no direct, tangible benefits to PSE, are we not?  Cause if so, none have been identified.

If it is just a litmus test, is it really any different than the old litmus test - how much money your father had?
 
Michael Dorosh said:
Not to be rude, but so what?  Combat operations are not arenas of debate they are hostile environments where orders are given and humans die.  Putting aside combat operations, ask ourselves - what do officers really need to know?  Looking at a typical reserve unit, say, ok you need guys running the kit shop, handling the politics of the regimental senate, liasing with the ladies auxiliary, talking to the press, convincing brigade that you really do need the little red wagon on your requisition for training, a million things.  Give me an example of complex opposing arguments in a young officer's life, and demonstrate that university education was responsible for him making the right decision.
The officer's job does not start and end with combat.  Officers are the advisors to the political world on issues of national security?  How do you advise on that if you do not understand international politics and law?  Officers are expected to see the ethical approach in all situations.  Officers must function in the three block war (think PSO & war fighting in the same city).  Reserve officers must be able to function if mobilized (so they need to function anywhere a regular officer would have to function).  Officers can be called on for mediation between lower elements of warring factions in PSO operations.  

Michael Dorosh said:
The argument here is that you MUST have this four years otherwise you cannot possibly be an officer.  Demonstrate why.
No.  The argument is that after four years of university you will have a better officer and an officer that has the foundations to develop as a senior officer.
 
Allright, let a grade 10 drop-out say in a few words what you eggheads take 3 pages to say.  It doesn't matter what course or training, etc., that you take. Its simple really, no mind will be expanded or broadened without the will and drive to make it so.  I consider myself [be careful here ego-boy]  somewhat ;) intelligent and that obviously didn't come from PSE, it came because I want to expand my knowledge.
 
Hi McG - I should probably let this sit and post when I'm not at work.  I do recognize that officers are more than just combat - I think I tried to mention that in my post, but did a poor job.

As for your last - the argument is that PSE be a mandatory requirement for commissioning.  You are saying it is a "nice to have" but the others are saying it is a "must have".  I'm just wondering why.  Yes, obviously you answer that by saying you believe it produces a "better officer", but you do nothing to convince me that this is the case.  What is it about university that makes for this "better officer" and why does he need to surrender four years of his life to get it?  It just seems that the benefits - whatever they are - are paltry compared to the time and money expended.
 
Why would we want all officers to have university education?  I do not think 100% is required, but the majority should have it.  As I said above, it is the foundation to prepare for senior officer roles.  It also prepares officers for what will be expected at staff college.

ROTP candidates are selected based on potential and then given the university education so that they may one day aspire to go beyond the rank of Maj.

DEO candidates are selected based on potential and required to come with a university education so that they too may on day aspire to go beyond the rank of Maj.

UTPNCM candidates are selected based on potential and then given the university education so that they may one day aspire to go beyond the rank of Maj.

CFR candidates are selected based on potential but they are not given the university education.  Many have the bulk of thier experience behind them and will never see beyond Maj.  However, the Army Officer degree program does offer them an opportunity to get that university education.

 
To all concerned,

No matter the outcome gentlemen, I believe this has been one of the better debates on these forums in quite some time. There hasn't been a lot of flaming and name calling like some threads, and has been conducted in a very interesting and gentlemanly manner.

My congratulations.    :salute:

Drummy
 
I am a young reserve officer with just over a year in the military and in a few days I will be entering the third year of my degree.  Personally, I have found that my university education has assisted me in my military career.  Very little of the information I have learned at university has been useful in the military, the only exception being the slight improvement in my writing ability that has come with continual criticism at school; it has not been the content that has improved my ability to perform as an officer.

What has improved my ability to perform as an officer is the exposure to extremely varied points of view from an extremely varied university populace and the consistently intelligent debate that has ensued when our viewpoints clash.  It has made me a far more open-minded person; I am far more willing to closely examine another's point of view, and critically examine my own ideas as well, now that I have been at university for two years.  Admittedly, some of this may simply be an increase in maturity with age and experience, but I do feel that my university education has postively impacted my outlook on the world.  This certainly has been an asset in the military, as I attempt to balance the different opinions of the senior NCOs under my command and try to better understand, influence, and comply with my commander's intent.  In addition, my university education has improved my ability to learn, and given my a greater understanding of the importance of research and higher-level comprehension when doing my job.  

However, I have met many officers for whom their experiences at university obviously did not change and improve them as it has for myself.  As others have said, you only get out of university what you put into it, and therefore some officers receive very little from their education.  

As a litmus test, university is, in my opinion as a student, absolutely useless.  From year to year a higher and higher proportion of the population receive university education, while from year to year the proportion of the population intelligent and driven enough to become a competent officer does not increase.  I meet many students at university who barely pass and do absolutely no work.  For them, a university education is meaningless, as they have put nothing into it and received nothing out of it.  I feel, personally, that for a university education to be an effective litmus test for an officer the standard must be raised such that only a student with at least 70% is given any credit by the military for their university education.  That is just below the mean and easily attainable by anyone with modest intelligence and the ability to work hard.  

University education should be seen by the military as an asset for any officer, but I agree that it would be far more beneficial to give officers an professional education in war than it would be to subsidize their university education.  There should be far more courses offered by correspondence to all officers within the military, reserve and regular force, that critically examine the doctrine of the canadian forces, the doctrine of our enemies, current events as they relate to the military, and past conflicts.  All officers should be required, every year, to publish at least one paper examining an aspect of our military, a foreign military, or a current or past conflict and engage in online discussion with other officers who critically examine their papers.  This would give every officer, from the young 2Lt to the older BGen the chance to gain a greater understanding of the opinions of other officers and of the military profession as a whole.  
 
Michael:
Not to be rude, but so what?  Combat operations are not arenas of debate they are hostile environments where orders are given and humans die.  Putting aside combat operations, ask ourselves - what do officers really need to know?  Looking at a typical reserve unit, say, ok you need guys running the kit shop, handling the politics of the regimental senate, liasing with the ladies auxiliary, talking to the press, convincing brigade that you really do need the little red wagon on your requisition for training, a million things.  Give me an example of complex opposing arguments in a young officer's life, and demonstrate that university education was responsible for him making the right decision.  The argument here is that you MUST have this four years otherwise you cannot possibly be an officer.  Demonstrate why.

Command in battle is only one, albeit the most important function of a professional officer.  They must occupy key staff positions, plan and execute complex training cycles, manage the large institution of the military.  We cannot simply say "Well, he did a damn fine job on that platoon attack, so he's fit to do these as well."
As well, there are "unofficial" duties that professional officers must fulfill in order to ensure the vitality of the profession.  Contributing to the professional dialogue in the form of journals and study groups, constantly evaluate ones own military forces and expand on the strengths and fix the shortcomings, pay attention the world events and the progression of human conflict in order to alter the way we organize to be best prepared for the next war.

All these are important skills of a military professional.  We cannot sit back and hope to get talented officers that can do this.  With the military education, we must use it both to determine who is fit and give those that are the mental tools to do this.  Will it ensure that 100% of officers fit the ideal mold?  No, of course not; nothing is perfect.  But I firmly believe that this system will provide the greatest aggregate increase of professional abilities within the Officer Corps.  Better to have 5 very good Majors out of 10 because you raised the bar then to hope for 2 good ones out of 20 because you didn't.

Bruce:
Its simple really, no mind will be expanded or broadened without the will and drive to make it so.  I consider myself [be careful here ego-boy]  somewhat  intelligent and that obviously didn't come from PSE, it came because I want to expand my knowledge.

Exactly.  This is why I am a proponent of service in the ranks for Officers.  A selection board evaluating the leadership abilities of soldiers combined with a rigorous military education will ensure that those who make it to their commission are those who possess the drive to make it so.  Not only has the military education served as the "litmus test", separating the "rams from the sheep", but those that do make it will have been given a solid starting point in which to base their professional career upon.  Just because one has grade 10 education does not mean they should be precluded from attempting if they are deemed suitable; if they show the will and determination and pass the examinations and PO checks, then they will be commissioned; just as a Officer Cadet who came from a prestigious private school would.


Michael: (Again  :) You're really forcing me to examine the foundations of my claims....)

Infanteer, I am dead serious about nbk's "mind broadening" statement.  Explain the difference to me.  It's a vague concept which we are probably defining differently, at least for purposes of this discussion.

Using mind-altering substances to "broaden ones mind" is simply using the chemical destruction of physiological functions in order to alter sensory perception.  The endstate can be loss in mental capabilities or addiction.  Using an military education to "broaden one's mind" introduces a Cadet to the interdisciplinary study of the profession of Arms.  It should immerse him in the history and the theory of battle in order to give him further analytic tools to be a thinking Officer in what ever position he is assigned.  I firmly believe that giving Officer's formulae, such as the 7 steps of battle procedure or the 16 (or 15 or 18, what is it these days?!?) point process of to lead a fighting patrol is inappropriate and will only result in failure, as you are constricting a commanders ability to think "outside the box".  THIS IS A CHECKLIST MENTALITY AND LEAVES NO ROOM FOR INITIATIVE AND CREATIVITY IN THE BATTLEFIELD.  The Germans, when teaching something, would always say "This is not a Formula!"  They insisted that there Officers should always think about what they were to do in battle; if they felt that it would not work, they would discard it and do something else.

A proper military education broadens their mind by giving them more empirical and analytical groundwork to approach each unique military problem with and devise the best approach.

If it is just a litmus test, is it really any different than the old litmus test - how much money your father had?

No; using money or social status as a determinant does nothing to find out if the person is suitable to join the profession.  Using a rigorous military education followed by comprehensive exams (and I believe preceded by prior service) can help to ensure that on the whole, the men and women who compose of a military's Officer Corps have gained their commissions through merit alone and have demonstrated their abilities through objective standards (of which an education is a key part).

I really do not like to refer to the military training I am advocating as a "university education" in the conventional sense as it seems a bit too loaded.  We get the idea of university as a place to study basket weaving, skipping class, working the beer bong and the sorority sisters on the weekend, and scrambling for good grades in your final year to get accepted into a Business Admin program or Law School.  This is not the idea of a "university education" that I wish to promote with my idea.

What the military education entails is a full immersion into all aspects of the profession of arms for the Officer Cadet.  Not only should the military education cover the more "academic" subjects such as history and military theory, but it should utilize "hands on work" as well.  Writing an academic term paper on Clausewitz or the organization of the 5th Canadian Armoured Division is one aspect of the military education.  Other aspects, in,  say a military history course, would be discussions, problem sets involving decision making processes, wargaming (yes, the Kriegspiele has been an essential part of a military education) and other sorts of engaging projects.  Introductory tactics courses, as I explained above, could offer a theoretical start into Army Leadership, with the second half of the course entailing many aspects of a Phase II (CAP) Course.  The military education should take a holistic approach to educating Officer Cadets to look at their profession.

It is not a litmus test for officers but it is a solid foundation on which to build the profession upon.  Yes, different people will take from the military education what they will, but I think the goal is to increase the professional level of the Officer Corps as a whole.

I think you could provide an education like this over a 3-3.5 year timespan on a full time basis.  Following the completion of the military education, all officers will write a series of comprehensive, professional examinations.  Successful completion of the exams can be followed by a 6 month Army Tactics Course, which begins the young professionals training in the techniques of command, starting with the battalion level (remember, two levels up).  The first part of the course would entail a general course of study for all Army Officers, ensuring that Logistics Officers are familiar with Infantry Platoons and Infantry Officers know how their supply system works.  The second half of the course would be trade specific (the equivalent of Phase III), in which the Cadets learn the nuts-and-bolts of the platoon that they will command.

Following this would come commissioning to Lieutenant and posting to one's first command.

Why do I through the training aspects into the mix?  A proper military education should be viewed as part and parcel of the training required for a commission.  A Doctor can not simply practice medicine by being taught to do a heart transplant.  He must learn about the human anatomy, the history of heart surgery, and nuances of the cardiovascular system, what has been tried and didn't work, where breakthroughs are being made.  The same with a Professional Officer, whether it applies to company attacks, staff planning, or winning wars; knowledge is key to the thinking commander, and the classroom setting (what we like to define as a university education) is one of the best ways for imparting much of the knowledge essential to the professional Officer.
 
Infanteer;

Your arguments are well thought out, cohesive, and persuasive.

It is difficult to find fault with your logic.

But ( you knew there was a "but", right?)  if your thoughts were implemented, and made in to official policy, just how many officers would we end up with?  Now, I know, the argument about quality over quantity, but there has to be a medium, where we get the best of both.  Your thesis (no, I never had any PSE, but it sounds like a good thesis topic) would undoubtedly give us professional officers, but in too few a quantity to meet our needs.

The second "but" is how would your policy be accepted by our political masters?  I have thoughts on this, but I would like to hear yours....
 
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