Sailors don't wear CADPAT direction by CANFORGEN

[Pat in Halifax]

Don't get me started on that "Isn't the Navy part of our Coast Guard?" thing.
Different topic - Was visiting in Barrie (Yes, in that 'have not' province) over the weekend and a freind posted to Borden came home after his work day in his CADPAT (Yes, he is a hard sea trade) - apparently Base Commander's orders?????
I guess CAFORGENs (read as "orders from CDS") don't apply at Borden????

 

[Neill McKay]

Different topic - Was visiting in Barrie (Yes, in that 'have not' province) over the weekend and a freind posted to Borden came home after his work day in his CADPAT (Yes, he is a hard sea trade) - apparently Base Commander's orders?????
I guess CAFORGENs (read as "orders from CDS") don't apply at Borden????

Not at CFB Gagetown, where naval personnel in the NB/PEI Cadet Detachment were still wearing combats yesterday.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Same here for navy folks working for LF units at CFS ST.JOHN'S (which happens to fall under MARLANT)

 

[catalyst]

    Funny thing about the navy's visibility.  When I had my naval uniform on and riding the bus back and forth to work, I would have people ask me what kind of outfit I had on.  When I would tell them Navy...they would ask if I meant coast guard?  Or is the navy part of those grey boats that are in the harbour?
  This is in HALIFAX!!!!!!!!

Its OK in Victoria, in cadpat, they ask me what part of the navy I'm in

 

[tree hugger]

I guess CAFORGENs (read as "orders from CDS") don't apply at Borden????

Doesn't seem as they apply anywhere...
Seriously, do you think the CDS is going to catch on that no one is following this direction?

 

[medaid]

My question is who cares?

I don't understand why so many people are getting bent out of shape about CADPAT vs NCD. What ever is practical when performing tasks should be good to go!

I STILL see divers from FDU (P) wear their CADPAT around, woe be to them! GET OVER IT.

 

[George Wallace]

:

Did the CDS actually sign this CANFORGEN or perhaps some General lower in the foodchain?







.........Such as the VCDS whose listed in the title of the Msg.

 

[gcclarke]

My question is who cares?

I don't understand why so many people are getting bent out of shape about CADPAT vs NCD. What ever is practical when performing tasks should be good to go!

I STILL see divers from FDU (P) wear their CADPAT around, woe be to them! GET OVER IT.

Well, frankly, if I, as a sailor, am posted somewhere where I should (Read: SHALL IAW CANFORGEN 198/09) be wearing my NCDs, and am instead forced to wear those relish getups called CADPAT, simply because some Army officer up in my chain of command decided that he didn't like sailors being able to look like sailors, I would be somewhat miffed. Especially when that decision is made contrary to orders from higher command.

And there is honestly no other valid reason. Yes, "whatever is practical when performing tasks should be good to go!" That means NCDs for anything other than field operations, field exercised, and other approved training situations. IAW REF A.

I know the reason that was given for this particular order was for recruitment efforts, and I do think that is indeed a valid argument. But I think it will (or would if people didn't decide to completely ignore it) have an ever greater impact upon retention. Forcing sailors to dress in army gear, for no bloody reason, is bad for morale. I think the whole post-Unification debacle proved that point. The only time they should ever be forced to wear NCDs is when they have a valid operational reason for doing so.

:
Did the CDS actually sign this CANFORGEN or perhaps some General lower in the foodchain?

.........Such as the VCDS whose listed in the title of the Msg.

Does it matter? Until cancelled, CANFORGENs apply to the entire CF, not merely the subset of the CF that falls under the OPI. If this had been issued as, for example, a MARGEN, then yes, army units could feel free to ignore it. This isn't the case.

 

[Journeyman]

My question is who cares?

While I can't speak for the Navy, or Air Force, I can understand their pride in being readily identified as sailors or....or, zoomie-persons.

I know I take pride in being a soldier, and if I could work up the interest I would likely feel pity that you don't know that pride.

For the rest of the sailors, give 'em their NCD.

 

[MARS]

It is all about identity MedTech. 

Let’s look at the issue from another perspective.  I have only had occasion to get to know two members of the Airborne, but I know they were darn proud of their maroon beret.  I presume SAR techs are equally as proud.  Earlier in this thread, it was noted that Dragoons are apparently quite proud of their black beret.  Now, imagine for a second that in some bizarro, alternate universe, they were required to wear a different beret.  No big deal, right?  After all, the colour of your beret has no impact on someone’s operational effectiveness.  But I would assume there would be all sorts of upset folks.  And I would certainly understand why – their identity has been stripped from them.  I would also hazard that telling one of them to “get over it” would not be very well received. 

Certainly NCDs lack that same prestige if you will, but when you reduce the argument to first principles, it is all about identity, one which most of us in the Navy are justifiably proud of.  And, working in an office is equally practical in either CADPAT or NCDs, so why not NCDs? 

(Journeyman said it better and more succinctly than I)

 

[medaid]

Well, frankly, if I, as a sailor, am posted somewhere where I should (Read: SHALL IAW CANFORGEN 198/09) be wearing my NCDs, and am instead forced to wear those relish getups called CADPAT, simply because some Army officer up in my chain of command decided that he didn't like sailors being able to look like sailors, I would be somewhat miffed. Especially when that decision is made contrary to orders from higher command.

And there is honestly no other valid reason. Yes, "whatever is practical when performing tasks should be good to go!" That means NCDs for anything other than field operations, field exercised, and other approved training situations. IAW REF A.

I know the reason that was given for this particular order was for recruitment efforts, and I do think that is indeed a valid argument. But I think it will (or would if people didn't decide to completely ignore it) have an ever greater impact upon retention. Forcing sailors to dress in army gear, for no bloody reason, is bad for morale. I think the whole post-Unification debacle proved that point. The only time they should ever be forced to wear NCDs is when they have a valid operational reason for doing so.

Does it matter? Until cancelled, CANFORGENs apply to the entire CF, not merely the subset of the CF that falls under the OPI. If this had been issued as, for example, a MARGEN, then yes, army units could feel free to ignore it. This isn't the case.

Great post! Tell it all to the Divers, because they don't care, and you can't tell me that they're commanded by an Army officer who feels that they shouldn't look Navy. They're NAVY, plain and simple, and they are NOT wearing NCDs as often as they should be. On all of the Ex I've seen Divers have been in CADPAT, walking around and forming up on parade in CADPAT. I don't see many trees around the jetty, and around the massive gray coloured sheds, do you?

I know I take pride in being a soldier, and if I could work up the interest I would likely feel pity that you don't know that pride.

Oh yes, great one JM, I don't know that pride. My pride is in my DEU, that's why it's there. To distinguish myself from an Airman or a Solider. Until you've worn my element's uniform, kindly keep your comments about pride to yourself and about yourself.

It is all about identity MedTech. 

Let’s look at the issue from another perspective.  I have only had occasion to get to know two members of the Airborne, but I know they were darn proud of their maroon beret.  I presume SAR techs are equally as proud.  Earlier in this thread, it was noted that Dragoons are apparently quite proud of their black beret.  Now, imagine for a second that in some bizarro, alternate universe, they were required to wear a different beret.  No big deal, right?  After all, the colour of your beret has no impact on someone’s operational effectiveness.  But I would assume there would be all sorts of upset folks.  And I would certainly understand why – their identity has been stripped from them.  I would also hazard that telling one of them to “get over it” would not be very well received. 

Certainly NCDs lack that same prestige if you will, but when you reduce the argument to first principles, it is all about identity, one which most of us in the Navy are justifiably proud of.  And, working in an office is equally practical in either CADPAT or NCDs, so why not NCDs? 

(Journeyman said it better and more succinctly than I)

Again, I feel pride in my uniform. But I could care less if my sailors are dressed in CADPAT or NCDs, because at the end of the day they still do the same jobs regardless of what they're wearing! That is what I'm saying here.

You want to increase visibility? Then start going to more recruiting events with COMPETENT Naval pers that can answer questions about the Naval MOCs. I will almost say that joe blow on the street can give less of a crap what our sailors are dressed in. Either NCDs or DEUs make us look like bus drivers and security guards. At least a CADPAT uniform will identify you as a member of the armed forces.

 

[Monsoon]

Oh yes, great one JM, I don't know that pride. My pride is in my DEU, that's why it's there. To distinguish myself from an Airman or a Solider. Until you've worn my element's uniform, kindly keep your comments about pride to yourself and about yourself.

And until you've worn this DEU for more than a handful of dogwatches, you might consider doing the same. For my part, Journeyman's independent assesment is spot on.

But I could care less if my sailors are dressed in CADPAT or NCDs, because at the end of the day they still do the same jobs regardless of what they're wearing! That is what I'm saying here.

Your somewhat overheated response to this topic suggests that you do indeed care quite a bit - and that you specifically resent having to wear NCDs. Fortunately, the way forward is clear: VCDS has made a decision and you - and all the mid-level managers holding up this CANFORGEN's implmentation - are the ones that need to get over it and move on.

At least a CADPAT uniform will identify you as a member of the armed forces.

Sure. Just the wrong armed force; that's the point. CADPAT is a perfectly lovely thing in its context and I certainly didn't resent wearing it when I deployed. There's a difference, though, between not wanting to wear something because you disrespect it (which isn't the case here) and not wanting to wear something because there's something more appropriate for you to wear.

 

[medaid]

And until you've worn this DEU for more than a handful of dogwatches, you might consider doing the same. For my part, Journeyman's independent assesment is spot on.

Good for you and JM then.

Your somewhat overheated response to this topic suggests that you do indeed care quite a bit - and that you specifically resent having to wear NCDs.

Really? Overheated? Have you READ the pages of drivel with people going back and forth?  Where have I indicated that I resent wearing NCDs?

Fortunately, the way forward is clear: VCDS has made a decision and you - and all the mid-level managers holding up this CANFORGEN's implmentation - are the ones that need to get over it and move on.

As I've said I don't care what they wear. The VCDS wants everyone in salt and peppers be my guest, and I'll continue to follow those directions and orders. However, my comments were meant to point out how silly this all is.

Sure. Just the wrong armed force; that's the point. CADPAT is a perfectly lovely thing in its context and I certainly didn't resent wearing it when I deployed. There's a difference, though, between not wanting to wear something because you disrespect it (which isn't the case here) and not wanting to wear something because there's something more appropriate for you to wear.

Again, our NCDs and DEUs have brought on more comments about it looking like a security guard, Brinks guard, and so forth then people asking me if I was in the Navy. I can honestly say within the past 2 and something years of interacting with the public in my naval environment uniforms, I have NEVER been identified as a Navy pers. It's always Army guy/ airline pilot/ security guard etc.

I agree with your statements on appropriateness. However who determines that appropriateness to a greater impact on the pers that wear them? The commander on the ground or the commander no where to be seen miles away?

Anyways, I'm done with this. This topic is as silly as those about TacVests and boots. Things aren't going to change that quickly, and when they do, it'll be time to change back again.

 

[Neill McKay]

Again, our NCDs and DEUs have brought on more comments about it looking like a security guard, Brinks guard, and so forth then people asking me if I was in the Navy. I can honestly say within the past 2 and something years of interacting with the public in my naval environment uniforms, I have NEVER been identified as a Navy pers. It's always Army guy/ airline pilot/ security guard etc.

More widespread wearing of naval uniforms might be a step in solving this problem, though.

I've been mistaken for a pilot and a Commissionaire (once each, that I know of) but each time has been an opportunity to educate someone on what a naval uniform is.  (I've also been correctly identified as a naval officer several times, so all hope is not lost!)

Once upon a time, everybody knew what a sailor looked like, including ours.  Everybody still knows what a sailor looks like -- except ours.  It will take some effort on our part to educate them.

 

[Lumber]

It is not only units directing pers not to action the CANFORGEN.  I am aware of at least one formation to have passed this direction to subordinate formations & units.

Dittio. We wear CADPAT once a week here (no.5s every other day ), and during exam time (read: now) we wear CADPAT as our DOD.

We've been told, however, that those of us in the Navy will continue to wear CADPAT and not NCDs.

Funny thing though, the UTPNCMs were told that they can wear NCDs...

 

[armyvern]

I'm wondering if the Navy's own scale of entitlement has anything to do with some sailors not yet being seen in NCDs.

IAW their own SOE, we can't issue NCDs to anyone not posted into a Naval-owned Posn, thus - there's a whole lot of purple sailors in Army Units (or Air Units) who've never been issued NCDs, nor do they have any current entitlement to be issued NCDs. Perhaps, the top acted without consulting the bottom to ensure the Admin was in place down here where shit actually happens to make (or ensure) this CANFORGEN implementation actually doable. It wouldn't be the first time ...

Also, am aware of two "Navy" purple people who've since submitted requests for change of enviornment to Land since this msg was cut. Seems they are among many purple people who didn't get their choice of enviornmental uniforms (because, let's face it - one joins the CF, not the Navy or the army or the AF) but figured what the hell because they were a "purple" trade anyway and serving in the Army where they wanted to be ... but now, want to be in the uniform of the enviornment they prefer because it will now be making a difference to them.

Anyway, until the Navy amends it's scale of entitlement (which are issued, authorized and in effect on authority of the CDS) - I can not issue NCDs to any pers of the Naval enviornment who is not posted into an establish "Naval position".

That little tidbit may have a whole lot to do with what's occuring (or not occuring in this case) too.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Hmmm.  Well, our Navy-DEU people were wearing NCDs just a bit ago at the Sqn brief.  ???

 

[armyvern]

Hmmm.  Well, our Navy-DEU people were wearing NCDs just a bit ago at the Sqn brief.  ???

Sure.

I once had a sailor working for me at the last Army base I was at who had been posted in from a ship to us; he has NCDs already that he could wear - having had an entitlement and having had been issued them as part of his prior job ...

Not so the sailors that I had working for me who were in their first posting (Army) of their career, or who had not had previous opportunity to be posted into a "naval" position where they would have had entitlement. And, as the Naval Scale of entitlement currently reads (according to the Sup Tech who checked for me), they still don't have an entitlement to be issued them. If the scale (the OPI is Naval - the scale is owned by the Navy) still isn't ammended, there isn't much a suppie can do to issue NCDs to pers not posted in Naval Establishment posns.

 

[Journeyman]

If the scale ....isn't ammended, there isn't much a suppie can do...

And you know how that will play out at the counter.....damn bin rats, refusing to issue stuff.  :nod:

 

[FDO]

The one thing I saw with ArmyVern's post was that Purple people did not get their chioce of element. I'm not sure what went on severasl years ago but since I've been in recruiting everyone gets a choice of element. If there are no positions in the elemnt they chose then they will be asked if another element is ok. If they say yes then that's where they go. If they say no they only want a certain element then they will wait for an opening.

My personal view is, if I am working in an office then DEUs should be the dress of the day. Why do I need to wear operational clothing sitting in an office? I am not working out in the field or on a ship where I need it. Chances of me having to hide behind a plant in the office is slim (except when I screw something up) or having to fight a fire or plug battle damage. Plus now with being able to order new DEUs it's never a problem to keep my kit in good repair.

The Army and Air Force in my office are miffed right now because we do have to wear DEUs. This means no more wash and wear. They have to actually put an iron to their clothes and polish on their boots.

My advice to anyone who has a problem with having to spend a few extra minutes making themselves look professional is find a Combat Engineer, build a bridge and get over it.