Second Language Training ( SLT )

[combatbuddha]

Does anyone have any information with regards the newly announced policy on bilingualism within the CF.
In particular I am concerned if this is going to be a continued area for "points" from a Merit Board for promotion. Common sense would say No, but we have sene in the past how far this has gotten us in the past.
IMHO it should no longer be a consideration unless one is posted to a postion where it is essential to be bilingual.

Any takers?

 

[aesop081]

Why should it no longer be a consideration......

I'm franco with an EEE profile in english.  I can be employed in any position regardless of working language. Why should i not get credited for that ? Am i not more employable than someone who is unilingual ?

 

[Judy]

Language profiles will always be part of the 'points' system, and rightly so.

 

[spud]

Am i not more employable than someone who is unilingual ?

Depends on how cranky you are 

 

[armyvern]

Depends on how cranky you are 

;D Isn't that a fact!!

 

[josh]

Why should it no longer be a consideration......

I'm franco with an EEE profile in english.  I can be employed in any position regardless of working language. Why should i not get credited for that ? Am i not more employable than someone who is unilingual ?

What difference does your French language make in an operational environment like Afghanistan where the common language among the coalition forces is English?  I wonder how many of our American allies speak French?  ;D 

 

[George Wallace]

What difference does your French language make in an operational environment like Afghanistan where the common language among the coalition forces is English?  I wonder how many of our American allies speak French?  ;D 

Didn't you know, it makes you shoot straighter and faster?    ;D

 

[combatbuddha]

Simple. Points are already awarded for professional development. Include second language ability in this category.

From my point of view it would help the worker bees and middle managers (Pte-WO). Pers who are top performers (and have technical courses, OPMEs, and other training) from both hard Anglo and Franco postings can compete fairly without DICRIMINATION. Gives the opportunity for Soldier A in Edmonton who is Anglo vehicle technician, civilian certified mechanic to compete fairly with Soldier B, who is a Franco militarily trained veh tech with no certification but is fully bilingual. They both have some form of profesional development which gives them both points in the eyes of a merit board, to a maximum.
Stops the people who are weak performers, both soldierly and technically, who try to make up for it with the "shiny stuff," from getting promoted over the strong performers who only wish to do the best job for their troops.

 

[combatbuddha]

Language profiles will always be part of the 'points' system, and rightly so.

Why, if it is not required at the "worker bee" level?
Again, I beleive it should be in the same classification as OPMEs and other professional development and not something that reeks of discrimination.

 

[aesop081]

What difference does your French language make in an operational environment like Afghanistan where the common language among the coalition forces is English?  I wonder how many of our American allies speak French?  ;D 

I can only assume that you know that there are other things going on other than afghanistan. Afghanistan is on eoperation but there are other things back home such as training, Headquarters, project management..........Granted operation sin the sandbox are important, seems to me you are incapable of seeing the bigger picture. Ever had to work in Kosovo with the French army........or in Africa for that matter........

 

[aesop081]

Why, if it is not required at the "worker bee" level?
not something that reeks of discrimination.

:rofl:

I actualy thought you were interestd in a genuine discussion.  Now i can only imagine you are disgruntelled, probably someone who was passed over for promotion to someone with as second language profile.  "Discrimination"......up until now , officers regardless of FOL were required to get a profile in the other......how that discriminates i have no idea.

 

[George Wallace]

combatbuddha


That is basically how the system is supposed to work right now.  The actual points that one can get for a Second Language proficiency is really only a fraction of a PER/Merit Board Ranking.  95% +/- of a persons Merit Board Ranking for job performance based on merit.  Second Language ability may only be the tie breaker when two equally merited persons are in competition.  Your example would not have been relevant in any way, even today.


I see you have modified your original post:

From my point of view it would help the worker bees and middle managers (Pte-WO). Pers who are top performers (and have technical courses, OPMEs, and other training) from both hard Anglo and Franco postings can compete fairly without DICRIMINATION. Gives the opportunity for Soldier A in Edmonton who is Anglo vehicle technician, civilian certified mechanic to compete fairly with Soldier B, who is a Franco militarily trained veh tech with no certification but is fully bilingual. They both have some form of profesional development which gives them both points in the eyes of a merit board, to a maximum.
Stops the people who are weak performers, both soldierly and technically, who try to make up for it with the "shiny stuff," from getting promoted over the strong performers who only wish to do the best job for their troops.

 

[vonGarvin]

I think what the spirit of the question is perhaps based upon former situations in which a person with a higher language profile gets "topped" over someone who is not bilingual, but if you take away the profile, the unilingual person rates higher.

It has happened.

I'll just adopt the attitude of "watch and shoot" on this one.

 

[aesop081]

I think what the spirit of the question is perhaps based upon former situations in which a person with a higher language profile gets "topped" over someone who is not bilingual, but if you take away the profile, the unilingual person rates higher.

It has happened.

I'll just adopt the attitude of "watch and shoot" on this one.

Let me ut it to you this way........

Language ability only counts for 2 points out of a hundred......so someone who "tops" another because of language ONLY........would only be lower by one point if it were taken away......

When i was at the school in Gagetown, i was one of only 2 french-speaking instructors.  Therefore m work load was triple that of english-only staff.  I had to teach anglo courses, franco course and instruct on courses i was not qualified to teach because anglo only qualified instructors could not teach the few franco students on the course.......I am quite certain that i meritted those 2 points over someone who could not be employed i as many capacities as i could.

When i went to the ice storms in 98...i was made driver for the sqn OC specificaly because i spoke french and the Major had to deal with local emergency workers and politicians who did not speak english...so again, tell me where french wasnt useful in operations ?

Want to talk about Afghanistan...OK

Lets make it that all have to learn arabic now instead of french.  How about that ?  I am already learning it from a freind here so i am good to go....give me my 2 points.  Whats that, you cant learn another language........gee thats too bad.......

 

[vonGarvin]

If a person flips over another because of language, then it becomes a deciding factor.  At battalion command and lower, it is not necessary to speak the other language.  At schools, it is (national schools, anyway). 

As for franco/anglo doing more work, I don't believe that.  It's all perception.  I've instructed on French courses, and on English, and my command of the french language, well, it's difficult.  (that's just me, and perhaps because it's my third language, after english and german).

As I said, watch and shoot.  I don't make policy.  Yes, I have opinions, but they are worth exactly what you pay for them: nothing.

 

[aesop081]

If a person flips over another because of language, then it becomes a deciding factor.  At battalion command and lower, it is not necessary to speak the other language.  At schools, it is (national schools, anyway). 

So what if it is a deciding factor ? If the 2 individuals had identical PER scores, wht is wrong with language breaking the tie.  That individual offers the caree manager, and his/her MOC more options.  I agree that bellow Battalion command it is not a big deal, but when do you teach those people will will be BN comanders and above....when they are in their 40s and less than able to learn, have other training that needs doing ?

As for franco/anglo doing more work, I don't believe that.  It's all perception.  I've instructed on French courses, and on English, and my command of the french language, well, it's difficult.  (that's just me, and perhaps because it's my third language, after english and german).

Beleive what you want, i am the one who lived it, came back to the office to see alot of my anglo comerades sittin at the computer surfing the internet. I taught anglo courses, franco courses and helped the anglo instructors teach the ones where students were mixed ( MILE PH3 & 4 as well ans franco assist QL6A and 6B). Then translated lesson plans.........

As I said, watch and shoot.  I don't make policy.  Yes, I have opinions, but they are worth exactly what you pay for them: nothing.

+1

 

[vonGarvin]

again, just my opinion, but language should NOT be the deciding factor.  Anyway, it will be interesting to see what happens.  And I wonder what the merit boards were like prior to the "official bilingual" rules came into effect.

 

[aesop081]

again, just my opinion, but language should NOT be the deciding factor. 

Seriously, tell me, if 2 soldiers have identical scores.......what should be the deciding factor then ? Tallest one gets promoted ? married over single ? shortest last name ?  Most middle names ?

 

[vonGarvin]

Seriously, tell me, if 2 soldiers have identical scores.......what should be the deciding factor then ? Tallest one gets promoted ? married over single ? shortest last name ?  Most middle names ?

If it's most middle names, then the French guy

But seriously, they should both be promoted.

 

[aesop081]

If it's most middle names, then the French guy

Dont be so sure...........I only have one

But seriously, they should both be promoted.

But you know as well as i do that the number of promotions is limited to a certain number......that will not always be possible.


Further more.  it can be argued that more Francos speak english than the reverse.  What are we going to do...predominantly staff bilingual positions or positions requiring french with folks from Quebec.  Is it fair to use those soldiers only in HQ and school environments ? is it even fair for Anglos to deny them the work and promotion oportunities that come with jobs such as PMO and the like at NDHQ ?

Further thinking of you assertion that BN comd and lower dont needs french.....what about school comandants ? what about training coy/sqn OC within those schools........