"Sergeant Major" and CWO Appointments

[sandoval]

I was looking through the CF rank structure on several webistes, and noticed a few discrepancies and what seems like the addition of a CWO appointment (Brigade Chief Warrant Officer). There's the regular rank structure at http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/insignia/index_e.htm, but at http://www.dnd.ca/admmat/dglepm/badges-insignia/army_rank_deu_e.htm, there's also a new addition of Brigade CWO with a new badge. Theres also the equivalent Fleet Chief Petty Officer for navy and (found on another website, cant remember which) Group Chief Warrant Officer for air force (with just an eagle under the CWO badge).

I'm thinking these postitions would already exist (remember a brigade seregant major or something), and these are just new badges for them, but I'm wondering if they've been issued out yet, and if someone holds these titles. Also where does CWO of a higher formation fit in, what higher formations would they command?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

CWO's don't command anything....

It looks like they have simply distinguished between a Base CWO and a Brigade CWO (or Brigade RSM) with a different insignia.  The Brigade RSMs used to wear the crossed swords, the same as a Base CWO.  That would be my interpretation, anyway.

The only formations above a Brigade are Division, Corps, Army, and Army Group.  A "Division CWO" would be, I think, unheard of to this point in time, but I stand to be corrected on that.

 

[McG]

An Area HQ is a higher formation.  Another higher formation in the Army is LFDTS.

 

[dutchie]

But isn't 'Area' stricly administrative, as opposed to Battalion, Brigade, Division etc.?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

But isn't 'Area' stricly administrative, as opposed to Battalion, Brigade, Division etc.?

I was of course referring to higher combatant formations.  I'm not sure what the legal definition is; McG may have a good point.  Do they have "Area RSMs"?  I am guessing they do?

Is there really a need for so many RSMs?  What role do they fill?  I am genuinely curious as I have no idea - Garrison RSM, Brigade RSM, blah blah - what are their duties?

It is interesting that in WW II, the German Army never had what we call an RSM even at the battalion level.  They did have their equivalent of CSM, who performed roughly the same duties (he wore two rows of rank lace on his sleeves, had several cool nicknames, and wore a reporting pouch in the front of his tunic).  But at the battalion level, as far as I can tell, they had no senior NCO or equivalent to the RSM.

 

[McG]

But isn't 'Area' stricly administrative, as opposed to Battalion, Brigade, Division etc.?

Yes, but it is still a higher formation (in that its componets are brigades, bases, ASUs, and other units & formations) and there is an Area CWO in each LF Area.

All the way up to the CDS, every officer in a command position is paired with a Sr NCO.  This is to ensure that the soldiers' voice is heard all the way to the top.

 

[Infanteer]

Is there really a need for so many RSMs?  What role do they fill?  I am genuinely curious as I have no idea - Garrison RSM, Brigade RSM, blah blah - what are their duties?

Yes, I kind of agree with you there, Michael.  Up above Brigade their position seems kind of superfluous; although I can see the need for a Base RSM in order to keep a garrison in running order.  But I honestly wonder how Formation RSM's do?

My guess is that the idea is to keep a solid "NCO support chain" all the way from the lowest section commander to the CWO of the Canadian Forces.

 

[Highland Laddie]

Do they have "Area RSMs"?   I am guessing they do?

Yep, they do, and I can personally attest to this. On Ex Active Edge 04 the Area RSM noted I was wearing my 'Stealth suit' top instead of my issue rain jacket in the field, and asked the Brigade RSM to "request that the young Captain either wear the stealth suit under the combat shirt, or wear the issued rain jacket". See, even Captains are not beyond the reach of the RSM ;D.

I do agree with his point about "setting a bad example of the troops"; however, most of the people around me were either wearing "crowns" or "three bars" ;D Oh well, if you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at....

 

[Infanteer]

On Ex Active Edge 04 the Area RSM noted I was wearing my 'Stealth suit' top instead of my issue rain jacket in the field, and asked the Brigade RSM to "request that the young Captain either wear the stealth suit under the combat shirt, or wear the issued rain jacket".

There is a reason it's called a stealth suit you know....

 

[sandoval]

Thanks for the replies, it all seems to make more sense now. Just wondering what kind of other duties CWOs above the brigade level would have aside from representing a continuous NCO chain. Are there a lot of NCM staff working directly for LFCA (for example) that he would supervise (not sure the right term), or is he almost just like an other officer?

 

[McG]

He would be an adviser to the Commander.

 

[pbi]

Having worked at both Area and Bde level, I can say I've seen several different RSMs at those levels. Their true value is really exactly the same as the true value of the RSM or SM at any level: it's directly proportionate to the human qualities of the RSM combined with the quality of the relationship between him and the Comd. I've seen excellent ones who kept the troops at heart, and I'v seen useless timeservers who just wanted to lord it over their peers. Best case, the relationship is tight and serves to ensure the continuance of the NCO chain to the top. Worst case it's window dressing.

As to the utility of the position, I believe it is very important in an all volunteer professional Army. In a conscript army, nobody cares what the NCOs and troops think, so who needs the NCO chain? The fact is that, the higher up the command echelon you go, the more you are at risk of becomig detached from the reality at unit level (you can sometimes even see that within a unit). I am often amazed at the different perceptions of reality at unit, Bde and up at Area: no wonder NDHQ is out of it. So, the RSM at these levels is an important conduit for reality, as we long as we let them tell the truth, no matter how unpleasant that may be. As soon as we turn RSMs into errand boys or "yes-men", we've screwed it, IMHO.

As an interesting aside on the value of professional NCOs, a Norwegian officer here told me that after several decades of not having NCOs (as we know them), they are examining a return to a professional NCO cadre to help lead and train their conscripts.

So, do we need the RSMs above unit? IMHO, yes. (The Germans didn't have them, but that doesn't mean they didn't need them, and anyway all armies are different) Do they do a useful job?: depends on the people factors, as it usually does. Cheers.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Hmm - Infanteer took my question to mean I thought we didn't need them, and pbi thought my example of the Krauts meant we don't need them...

Nothing further from the truth, just trying to clarify exactly what it is they DO....getting some good answers, thanks.

 

[pbi]

Michael: roger that-no harm done.


On the issue of   the Areas being purely "administrative" HQs, that is a concept that was overtaken by events several years ago. Domestic ops, both unarmed and armed, have been the purview of these HQs for the better part of a decade now. All the LFA HQs now have a number of major Dom Ops under their belts, including security ops such as OP GRIZZLY(G8) in Kananaskis and the NATO DefMin Conf in Toronto. Each LFA runs a 24/7 Ops Centre and maintains the capability to quickly ramp up crisis action staff plannig teams. LFWA and LFCA HQs have auxiliary power sources to maintain op cap in an emergency. The Army now recognizes that LFAHQs are formation HQs, although static in nature, with a clear operational role. Despite what they may think, the Regular CMBGs are subordinate to this role: they are only one part of the domestic ops capy of an LFA. What is still lacking is a truly "deployable" capability, such as was required for LFWA during both GRIZZLY and PEREGRINE (BC Fires), but I know they are working on this. Cheers.

 

[McG]

I'm thinking these postitions would already exist (remember a brigade seregant major or something), and these are just new badges for them, but I'm wondering if they've been issued out yet, and if someone holds these titles. Also where does CWO of a higher formation fit in, what higher formations would they command?

Did my investigation.   Here is the result:

The Bde CWO badge has been in the works for a few years now.   The intent is that one will now be able to distinguish between the Bde CWO and a Base CWO.   Traditionally Bde CWOs wore the Base CWO badge.   The new badge is now in use and has been in use for a few months.

 

[Gayson]

A question has come to my mind lately. . .

Companies / Squadrons have MWO' as Company / Squadron Sargeant-Majors.

Regiments have CWO's as Regimental Sargeant-Majors.

Do Battalions have Sargeant-Majors?  If so what rank do they usually hold?

 

[McG]

CWO and the appointment is still typically called RSM.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

A question has come to my mind lately. . .

Companies / Squadrons have MWO' as Company / Squadron Sargeant-Majors.

Regiments have CWO's as Regimental Sargeant-Majors.

Do Battalions have Sargeant-Majors?   If so what rank do they usually hold?

Battalions and Regiments are the same thing in the modern sense of the word.  The PPCLI do NOT have a Regimental Sergeant Major, rather, each battalion of the PPCLI has its own RSM.

Confused yet....??

The short answer was given above.

 

[Gayson]

I got it.

so 1PPCLI and 2PPCLI have different RSM's.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I got it.

so 1PPCLI and 2PPCLI have different RSM's.

Thanks for the clarification.

Exactly.  Armoured Regiments are still called Regiments, but in actuality are armoured "battalions".  Same deal, they have their own RSM.