"Sergeant Major" and CWO Appointments

[Horse_Soldier]

In fact, call him "Chief" with your hands in your pockets and chewing on some gum.

Go the whole hog: tie pulled loose, beret pushed to the back of the head and tunic unbuttoned.
:gunner: :fifty:

 

[Infanteer]

I'm glad someone realized I was joking....

 

[RCA]

Sometimes people (and RSMs) take things too seriously and the humour escapes them....

Its from being a cynic toooo long

 

[Steel Badger]

What they really need to do is create a new badge for those OFFR and OR appointments who sit in Ottawa and rename things as a part of the ongoing CF RDRP (Routine Designation Replacement Program.)

Perhaps they should all wear the eight limbed arrow of chaos on their sleeves, just above the trade badge or OFFR / WO's rank insignia.

Or more appropriately, in various positions; The position of the month  designated by the Chief Ouji Board Operator (MOSID66690210) of the CF RDRP Cell. Going one step further , perhaps the COBO could use the Board to determine the period of interval between badge position changes.  This system would be a fool prof method of assuring random dress.....I have it on  reliable information that the Air Force has been using just such a system to determine their dress regs for years now. ;D

 

[SHARP WO]

You could also place a giant suggestion box in Ottawa and then you would have a mutitude of ideas to draw from.

SHARP WO

 

[thorbahn]

I've (obviously) not been in very long, just over 3 months actually. I'm currently on BMQ.

Anyway, I was wondering what exactly the appointment of TSM, BSM, RSM etc. entails, and why CWO's always seem to be RSM's. Basically I'd like to know what Sergeant Major means.

 

[the 48th regulator]

not that I am trying to keep a secret or anything, but be patient and wait for the lecture on rank structure.  You will get a lot more out of it than anyone trying to explain it on the net.  Plus you will get the fortune of learning from a future SGT. Major.

cheers,

tess

 

[Highland Lad]

"Sergeant Major" (of any type - TSM, CSM, RSM, etc...) is an appointment, as opposed to a rank.

Quite simply, the Sergeant Major is the senior non-commissioned officer within a unit or sub-unit.

As for why CWOs always seem to be RSMs - it's simple; once a CWO has served as RSM, his (or her) duties usually take them beyond their parent unit. They then serve at larger formation HQs, or they take a commission (and finish their service in a less-stressful environment ;D).

 

[pbi]

"Sergeant Major" (of any type - TSM, CSM, RSM, etc...) is an appointment, as opposed to a rank.

Quite simply, the Sergeant Major is the senior non-commissioned officer within a unit or sub-unit.

As for why CWOs always seem to be RSMs - it's simple; once a CWO has served as RSM, his (or her) duties usually take them beyond their parent unit. They then serve at larger formation HQs, or they take a commission (and finish their service in a less-stressful environment ;D).

The term "Sergeant Major" goes back at least to the time of Cromwell in England and indicates the most senior of the sergeants in a company or unit. I question whether it was "just an appointment" throughout history: I think you will find that until around the time of WWI, it was a rank(paid accordingly), only. The possibility of a person being a WO2 (later MWO) or WO1 (later CWO) and not holding the position of "Sergeant Major" was something that I think only came along after WWI with the increased requirement for techically qualified senior WOs.

The appointment of   "Sergeant Major" in our Army today (post Unification) is not necessarily held by a MWO/CWO. A WO can be (and especially in the Res, often is) a sub-unit SM, and an MWO can be a unit SM. They may do this in an "acting" capacity, or they permanently fill the position due to a lack of qualified candidates.

As for a CWO "always" being an RSM, this is more prevalent in single-battalion Res units in which normally only one person holds the rank of CWO at a time, and is of course employed as RSM. In Regular Regts, there can be several individuals wearing CWO, but only one of them will be employed as the RSM of a battalion. The others may be found on extra-Regimental employment (ERE) at schools or various HQS in staff roles. In the technical branches, there may be more than one CWO in a large service support unit, due to the level of technical supervision and management required. Still, only one of these CWOs will be RSM. In the RegF a CWO could be promoted but might not ever be an RSM.

Cheers






































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[dw_1984]

I don't want to sound like I wasn't paying attention during BMQ but what is a TSM?  Troop SM?  I've never heard of those before.

 

[PeterLT]

Things will be explained to you as you go on with your training. I suppose a simple way to explain what an RSM is, is simply to say that if you have occasion to be on the wrong side of one; you will learn exactly what an RSM is.

Have fun!

Peter

 

[pbi]

I don't want to sound like I wasn't paying attention during BMQ but what is a TSM?   Troop SM?   I've never heard of those before.

It is (I think) the Artillery equivalent to Platoon Warrant Officer in the Infantry. It might also represent "Technical Sgt Maj".

Things will be explained to you as you go on with your training. I suppose a simple way to explain what an RSM is, is simply to say that if you have occasion to be on the wrong side of one; you will learn exactly what an RSM is.

Have fun!

Peter

Hmmmm-surely we are not saying that the young and uninitiated should not be able to ask questions and get answers here? What's wrong with Dingbat showing an active curiosity?

Cheers.

 

[Pencil Tech]

.PBI, in the res arty regt I'm associated with we have a Tech WO. I've never heard of TSM  but maybe if someone from RCHA is listening in they might be able to help us with that. AS for the way they taught rank structure on the BMQ I was on - it was strictly that: rank structure - they never even mentioned other appointments.

 

[dw_1984]

It is (I think) the Artillery equivalent to Platoon Warrant Officer in the Infantry. It might also represent "Technical Sgt Maj".

Hmmmm-surely we are not saying that the young and uninitiated should not be able to ask questions and get answers here? What's wrong with Dingbat showing an active curiosity?

Cheers.

Interesting...hmm...never heard of a troop warrant called a sgt maj before.  We use troops instead of platoons in the engrs as well.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Hi PBI,

Hmmmm-surely we are not saying that the young and uninitiated should not be able to ask questions and get answers here? What's wrong with Dingbat showing an active curiosity?

Cheers.

Active curiosity is not being suppressed, but nothing is more frustrating to an instructor than having a student already know what is being taught "because he learned it on a website called army.ca".

As I said above, be patient and take in a good lecture, and I am sure he will get more out of it, than he would reading it of the computer.  I am sure he would also be more attentive if he does not already know the answer to the next sentence that the instructor is about to say.

my $0.02 as people say.

cheers

tess

 

[thorbahn]

The TSM I was referring to is Troop Sergeant Major, in the artilllery.

not that I am trying to keep a secret or anything, but be patient and wait for the lecture on rank structure.  You will get a lot more out of it than anyone trying to explain it on the net.  Plus you will get the fortune of learning from a future SGT. Major.

cheers,

tess

I'm nearly done BMQ, we've had the rank structure lecture.

 

[muskrat89]

Of my 13 years in, the last 5 or 6 were spent as an Artillery TSM. In the field battery, in an ideal world, there will be 2 TSMs - a Gunline TSM, and a Recce TSM. Rarely did I have that luxury. A TSM is the Senior NCO on a gun position. The Senior NCO in a Battery is the BSM - usually, he was with the echelon. Administratively, a Battery is (or was) often divided into Troops - Transport, Admin, Guns, Tech, etc. The TSM was the Troop Commander's Snr NCO. Hope that helps. That is based on 1996 info, BTW.

Regarding "What is a Sergeant Major?" I can't give this quote proper credit, because I can't recall the name of the book. I have it packed somewhere, and it was a book about wartime Aldershot (NS)

He spoke, â Å“My name is Clifford Rafuse.â ? Then, taking his swagger stick and touching the crown insignia on his arm, he would say, â Å“I am a Sergeant-Major. You will not address me as Clifford, Cliff, Rafuse, sir, hey you, or any of the foul names you really think of me in your pea-sized brains. I am a Sergeant-Major â “ here, in the shower, in the latrine, in my drawers, in my pajamas, or when I am dead. I am, and always will be Sergeant-Major Rafuse to you. If you pumpkin-heads see me on the street twenty-five years from now- and most of you won't survive this training to live that long- I will still be addressed as Sergeant-Major by you. Do you understand that?â ? Then bellowing again, he demanded they scream an answer: â Å“Yes, Sergeant-Major.â ?
He would then go on: â Å“I'm not your mother; I won't tuck you in bed; and I won't be your pal. I will make you bleedin', sloppy, unwashed, useless, pudgy loafers who thought this army was a holiday camp into battle shape. I shall turn your pudgy asses into such shape that you will have muscles in your defecation. Some few of you who fooled your way through some little school may think you are smart and will think you will fool me because you know the ABC's! You will not fool me; you are not smart. And when I say â Å“jumpâ ?, you say â Å“How highâ ?. When I say â Å“defecateâ ?, you say â Å“Yes, Sir, and what colour, Sir?. I shall make you baggy, civilian lot of unwashed, sloppy, buggers into cleaned, shined, well-spoken, and obedient battle-ready troops. Or.. you will suffer a fate and terror worse than hell.
â Å“Your Mother can't save you. Nobody is tougher than I am. I am tougher than any Kraut you ever encounter. Even the Padre is scared of me. I'll march you, drill you, train you, punish you, and toughen you into soldiers. Don't talk back; don't complain, even to the Padre;  because my words will even bring tears to his eyes. Now tighten up those soft pudgy asses, pull in those sagging chins, and suck in those baggy guts. Hands by your sides with thumbs down the seams of those potato-bag looking trousers.
â Å“Like this,â ? as he demonstrated, â Å“and when you get that right, we'll take you ladies to a lovely King's breakfast of such quality you'll be glad when we let you work in our kitchen. Our next present to you slobs will be a visit to His Majesty's barber so as you can get that bleedin', mangled, lady-length, dirty, bug-infested civilian hairdo cut off. You will then, at least, not look like a bleedin' civilian, with a filthy mat on your head. Now fall out, ladies, and form up for the cookhouse. MARCH â “ quickly, before I lose my f...n' temperâ ?


Sergeant-Major Rafuse' standard welcome to new recruits at Camp Aldershot, beginning around 1939.

 

[HopefulCandidate]

Sounds like a likeable guy

 

[Jungle]

Well, to complement Muskrat 89's very coulouful quote, here's something more recent.
Extracted from a pamphlet prepared in 1985:

"While it is difficult to say what a Sergeant-Major is, it is not difficult
to say what he is not. First off, he is not an officer; he is a Master
Warrant Officer, probably with between 15-20 years of service and with more
professional Infantry training and expertise, not to mention experience,
than anyone else in the company. Do not confuse what a CSM does with an
officer's duties or responsibilities, he is not an officer and he does
things, his things, in his own way. If the Company 2IC is absent then a
Platoon Commander, not the CSM, should be tasked to replace him. As long as
he does his duties properly and the company flourishes then fair enough: if
not, then the Company Commander, RSM and Commanding Officer have a problem.
Next, a CSM is not a clerk, bound to a desk with charts and orders. We have
fine clerks, a CSM is not one of them, he is a mover and a shaker. He is out
of the office, watching, looking, teaching, setting and maintaining
standards. He delegates the office work and while supervising it, gets on
with being seen and seeing things for himself. And lastly, a Sergeant Major
is not just another player in the team, he is a key player, the pivot man,
the experience base, the mover and the shaker - he is the Sergeant Major.

Anyone who has seen a good Company Commander and Sergeant-Major in operation
together, be it in the garrison, or in the field - particularly in the field
- has seen something special - the company clicks, things happen, people
bounce, men respond, the team wins again and again. I do not know how to
write it down but I do know that without a good Sergeant-Major you cannot
have it and that is certain."

      J.E.L. Gollner
      Colonel, Director of Infantry

 

[pbi]

Jungle: Fantastic quote. That is what I believed when I was a Res WO, what I tried to practice when I was an OC, and what I firmly believe. Larry Gollner was not liked by everybody, but he was a soldier IMHO.

Active curiosity is not being suppressed, but nothing is more frustrating to an instructor than having a student already know what is being taught "because he learned it on a website called army.ca".

Respectfully, but this says more about the instructor than it does about the student. On this basis all recruits should commence training with completely empty heads and never bother to seek knowledge on their own: this is not the case now, and I know that it was certainly not the case when I was a Res recruit over 30 years ago. Soldiers are curious, and if you don't answer their question fast enough, they will find out on their own. I suggest that what you are really concerned is not that he "knows" it, but that he "blabs" it in class. The latter is a judgement thing, and has to be dealt with on a case by case basis, not by attempting to discourage previous knowledge. When I did officer basic at Chilliwack, I went through with a guy who also had plenty of previous experience. We kept our mouths shut and used our knowledge to help guys who needed it. Others (usually ex-Res) could not keep their mouths shut and suffered for it. Do you think we should have gone into officer training with no previous knowledge?

Cheers