Serious Discussion on the Treatment of Liberals on These Forums

[stealthylizard]

Usually when this forum talks about Liberals, it is about the Liberal PARTY, not the people that vote for the party.  Many will vote for the Liberal Party for various reasons, and I think most (hopefully) realize that.  Military is not one of the key election issues for a lot of the voting public, until they are polled, asking about if the military should be better funded.  Rarely is it ever part of a party's election platform that is fed to the public.  Speaking for myself, this last election for me, was a one issue vote.  All parties, unfortunately, eventually become alike, but I wanted to give the Conservative Party a chance to prove me wrong, especially on the military side of things.  I don't agree on everything Mr. Harper has done, but I would be willing to give him one majority mandate to try and fix the military as best as he can.  If and when he fails, I will slag him as I do all other politicians that have failed in that regard.

 

[1feral1]

Now this is the post that I was expecting coming into this. You call the Liberals of Canada inbred and incestuous, well now doesn't that seem like a bit of a personal attack? I certainly don't fool around with my relatives and for that matter if we are going by the stereotype wouldn't conservatives be more likely to do that? But that's not the main purpose of this site. You say I should listen and that you won't listen to me because I'm 19 and have only one federal elections under my belt, so do you suggest that I stop posting here for another 5 years? That's absurd and I don't think many other people feel that way. This is the internet, where age should play no factor in discussions but more so the intelligence of the debate. Just for the record as well, by merely voting in an election in doesn't give you any more experience than I might have, we've both voted so thats a moot point.

Whatever makes you feel good Gimpy, at 19, you got the world by the short hairs, and at 47 I know phuck all.

Maybe when you grow up you can be a politician, perhaps a Liberal PM one day.

IMHO, having the same government for years and years is incestous and inbread, regardless of whatever party they are.


Wes

 

[medaid]

+1 Wesley.

The Canadian Government, if you looked at it closely, always had a history of swinging back and forth from one end of the political spectrum to the other. We all know what anything in excess is bad. In this case, the excess was the Liberal government. Now that the political spectrum has swung to the otherside with the Conservative party, we are beginning to see a balance between the two parties' ideals and political agendas. For example, when the Liberals were in power, there was barely any military funding, now the Conservatives are in, we are getting more. You know what I call that? BALANCE. and that is how a democratic government is supposed to work.

 

[Roy Harding]

Hello, I can hear you, you know. 

;D

I forgot to add that there are also many smart asses here, despite their "mature" years.


Roy

 

[Mike Baker]

What about me? I am an immature smart ***  (Kidding of course)

edit: woops sorry for the not changing the rear end to ***  :-[

 

[NL_engineer]

Gimpy,
You may think the Liberals are given a bad name on this form; but look at the number of times we poke fun at/criticize the hell out of the NDP and Taliban Jack.

None of the NDP supporters (if there are any left on here) have started a thread about it. 

 

[RangerRay]

My read:

Personal attacks on individual posters - not ok

Attacks on collectives (Liberal/Tory/NDP supporters in general) - ok

Mods, am I wrong here?

Editted for clarity.

 

[Steenburg]

OK, I want to make this clear. I've never said anywhere in my posts that I wanted to leave or that I disliked it here. This site is very informative and I really like this site, but my main concern is that on topics of politics or anywhere where the words Liberals or NDP comes up there are always little backhanded comments that are ill-informed and add nothing to the topic. You can find plenty of historical reasons for conservative dislike as well but that doesn't mean that I am going to make remarks about previous conservatives in every post.

Gimpy In what way are we misinformed concerning the N.D.P. and their military policies???

 

[stealthylizard]

When a member of the NDP refers to our military as "acting like terrorists", in my opinion, leaves the party open for any remarks tossed their way.  Very seldom will I insult the voters of the various parties, but the politicians, that are part of said party, deserve every bit of criticism.  I have no problems with them discussing the appropriateness of select missions, and they have every right to debate them, but for them to insult the men and women serving in a hot conflict overseas, is just (how do I put this delicately?) wrong.  Sorry if that upsets you, I will try to keep my partisan comments in check, unless there is no other way to address their actions.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

not really a partisan comment if you are (of course you are) the victim of such a verbal attack, I wasn't real fond of the NDP comment about our military acting like terrorists, that implies that me and all the other men and women of the CF are no better than those that would bomb a school bus for political or terror gain. Not me, not any mbr of my Canadian Forces, your comment is bang on when I feel personally wronged by a political party or thier members I won't stand by and take it.

 

[CougarKing]

the Liberals have always been against Defence, and if you want a strong Defence Force, you will get that from the current governemt.

Wes,

Apparently you haven't read Med Tech's earlier comment:

by Med Tech

Ok heres my 2 Cents (inflamatory as usual) to maltreate Liberals or Liberal supporters (and by this I mean personal attacks) is indeed wrong, we have a constitution to protect these rights. Heres the other side of the coin for all those who support the Military and are card carrying Liberals (yes they are out there) and perhaps in a place to influence thier partys policy on defence. Read a book "Who Killed the Canadian Military" by Jack Granatstien, he takes pot shots at leaders from both conservative and liberal parties ie
Diefenbaker killed the military
Mike Pearson killed the military
Hellyer went too far and killed the Canadian military
Pierre Trudeau viewed soldiers as unintelligent thugs...Trudeau killed the Canadian Military
Mulroney killed the Canadian Forces
Jean Chrétien finished off the Canadian Forces
"Canadians, for the most part, are ill informed on national interests, defence needs, and the new world order"
of course you'll notice his strongest points if you read the book point more towards the Hellyer/Trudeau boondoggle of unification (A liberal effort) but it is only fair to point out that he did take shots at both major parties. So the personal attacks wrong the personal opinions, well thats all they are, everybodies got one

by Wes

Offended perhaps  :  no one cares,

Having more experience is not a license to treat someone without tact or decency (in this case, a non-military setting, in a public forum) , unless you know them quite well; one can't judge someone's character simply by their posts.

by Wes

IMHO, having the same government for years and years is incestous and inbread, regardless of whatever party they are.

True.

Have a good holiday at the Coral Sea. 

 

[1feral1]

Wes,

Apparently you haven't read Med Tech's earlier comment:

by Med Tech
by Wes
Having more experience is not a license to treat someone without tact or decency (in this case, a non-military setting, in a public forum) , unless you know them quite well; one can't judge someone's character simply by their posts.

by Wes
True.

Have a good holiday at the Coral Sea. 

Firstly, I live on the Coral Sea.

I read it ya, but I have my opinion, just like you. Some agree, some don't, that makes it interesting at the best of times.

I just am totally turned off and had a serious gutful at whinging people with political attitudes and agendas like Gimpy, life experience or not, he would have got a taste of my opinion!

Gimpy should just get over it.

So, don't 'come the raw prawn' with me mate! Google that for the definition if you want to.

As far as I am concerned politically wise, you both need a 'whaaaambulance'. So don't go waving the politically correct flag at me! You will get nowhere fast.

If I feel like venting I will, and with manners, maybe abrupt at times, but I would not be the first or last in that matter.

I have become familiar with your posts too, and they are always bent to the left, and thats fine, its a free country.

In my years living in Canada I had seen the Liberals do lots of silly things aside from Defence matters, the gun registry for example, over 200 million pissed away. Alan Rock personally cost me thousands of dollars as he did to other law abiding gun owners. There is more to criticising the Libs than just these two things. No party is perfect, all politicians lie and kiss babies, not much changes.

I had also seen the PC's do some silly things, but nothing like what the Libs had done.


Cheers, and have a nice spring day


Wes

 

[Journeyman]

When the Party Leader's battlecry is "It's not Fair!" it's inevitable that the Party supporters will take up that mantra.


I've been trying to avoid responding for three days (because this is a "serious discussion," unlike all those military topics), but as mentioned in some blog, with Dion in charge, "the punchlines write themselves."  ;D

 

[GAP]

I think this thread, initiated by a politically passionate 19 year old with zero life experience, has run it's course......

Post again when you are thirty and have changed from a Liberal to NDP, Green, or...gasp....Conservative...

 

[Bench211]

Blame the Liberals for the state of the military? IMO there were many factors which caused the huge cut backs in the military.
End of the Cold War 1991. Somalia Inquiry in the mid 90's. As we all know the publicity didn't help our cause. I think the media hype was overblown but ...Its hard to convince the public to spend money on the military.
The Conservative left the Liberals with huge budget deficit in 93. Economy slowed down. Companies downsizing etc.
We end up with pay freezes and I think the biggest mistake was how the FRP was implemented. I'm not positive but it seemed that recruiting
was halted completely. I don't know how the FRP strategy was hatched but surely the higher ups in the military must of had some say in it.
As our economy prospered the DND budget was greatly increased. We started getting some decent pay raises and more importantly better equipment.
I have seen spending on items that really didn't make sense. Upgrading computers, which worked fine. Some new equipment purchases which had more problems than the old equipment. I think because the US is our neighbour and we work with them on many missions we are envious of there vast military might. With the US population of nearly 300 million compared to our 33 million, Canada can't sustain a huge military.
Yes the Liberals had the 100 million dollar Ad Scam, gun registry and made other questionable decisions.
What did the Liberals leave the Conservatives, a huge budget surplus. My taxes have not been lowered in the passed two budgets, big surprise.
I think the majority of members maybe 65% in the CF don't bother to vote. Through 29 years I voted about five times.
In 2004 and 2006 it was very important for me to vote. I'm not fully confident with the Conservatives policies or people, what can I say.
Presently the Conservatives look good for the military, we basically have a blank cheque, but remember how the budget surplus was created.
Thanks

 

[GAP]

Its hard to convince the public to spend money on the military. Agreed, especially when you tell that same public you no longer need them

The Conservative and Trudeau Liberals left the Liberals with huge budget deficit in 93. Economy slowed down. Companies downsizing etc.

As our economy prospered the DND budget was greatly increased. We started getting some decent pay raises and more importantly better equipment. After stories in the MSM started arising about service members going to food banks. It played a huge part of the political decision

Yes the Liberals had the 100 million dollar Ad Scam, gun registry and made other questionable decisions.
What did the Liberals leave the Conservatives, a huge budget surplus. By offloading most ongoing costs to the provinces, who then turned around and added more costs and lumped them back onto the single source of taxes....you
My taxes have not been lowered in the passed two budgets, big surprise.
I think the majority of members maybe 65% in the CF don't bother to vote. Kinda like the general population...no?

Through 29 years I voted about five times.
In 2004 and 2006 it was very important for me to vote. I'm not fully confident with the Conservatives policies or people, what can I say.
Presently the Conservatives look good for the military, we basically have a blank cheque, but remember how the budget surplus was created. We all remember Paul Martin's 1995 budget, which we are still paying for today
Thanks

 

[aesop081]

Blame the Liberals for the state of the military? IMO there were many factors which caused the huge cut backs in the military.

You started out well enough....

End of the Cold War 1991. Somalia Inquiry in the mid 90's. As we all know the publicity didn't help our cause.

I joined just before the Somalia Inquiry started.....Those were shitty times

I think the media hype was overblown but ...Its hard to convince the public to spend money on the military.

The Liberal governmen had no problems with that, it didnt want to spend money on the military.  The Liberals saw the military as the perfect sopt to cut the budget as the general population, more concerned with health care would not put up much of a fuss over it.

The Conservative left the Liberals with huge budget deficit in 93. Economy slowed down. Companies downsizing etc.

Hahaha.....If you think the conservative did alot of damage, go and look at what Trudeau and his Liberals did.....

I'm not positive but it seemed that recruiting was halted completely.

Obviously not, thats when i joined...although my choices at the CFRC were rather limited, leading me to take an 11 year detour through the army before moving on to the AF

I don't know how the FRP strategy was hatched but surely the higher ups in the military must of had some say in it.

I would suspect that, while the military has A say in it, treasury board had MOST of the say in it

As our economy prospered the DND budget was greatly increased. We started getting some decent pay raises and more importantly better equipment.

Realy ? Could have fooled me !! I still remember rolling right along in my 1965 M113 APC, we are still flying 40 yeard old helicopters, we ended up buying USED submarines....

With the US population of nearly 300 million compared to our 33 million, Canada can't sustain a huge military.

Everyone knows Canada will not have a military with 3 million people in it.  If you look at "per capita" spending, Canada is not doing its part and getting away cheap.

Yes the Liberals had the 100 million dollar Ad Scam, gun registry and made other questionable decisions.

Questionable ? Are you serious ?

What did the Liberals leave the Conservatives, a huge budget surplus.

A crumbling infrastructure where everything was passed down to the provinces.  They also left a huge hole in the CF pension fund as they used it to clear the previous deficit. An ongoing imballance in the tranfer payment system.  They left the conservatives with a CF that was rusting out on all fronts.........I could go on all day !!

My taxes have not been lowered in the passed two budgets, big surprise.

We all have our priorities, glad you have yours.

I think the majority of members maybe 65% in the CF don't bother to vote.

Source ? How about comparing that with the general population ?  Get some facts to back you up...."i think" just doesnt cut it here

but remember how the budget surplus was created.

It was created over the backs of working Candians and at the expense of the infrastructure this country took decades to build.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Traditionally - over, say, the past 100 years - the Liberals were NOT any more anti-military than the Conservatives.

The change, and it was a huge, sea state change, came in 1968.  Pierre Elliot Trudeau was anti-military.  He despised the military and the people in it.  This feeling was fundamental to his personality and his world view.  It had nothing to do with his decision to shirk World War II, a decision which I think he came to regret – it was something he ‘learned’ over the years and it was a reflection of his upbringing (Québec in the ‘30s and ‘40s) and education.

Despite massive, near total opposition by his cabinet and the PCO he decided, largely on the advice of his foreign policy guru Ivan Head , to cut our NATO force in half and move it out of harm’s way, down South, to Lahr, well away from the main, indeed only Soviet axis on the North German Plain.   It is reported that he wanted, indeed proposed to withdraw completely from NATO but even a cabinet full of spineless lackeys would not stand for that.  It is my opinion that he really wanted unilateral disarmament.  Because he was an economic illiterate he almost got that effect – his mismanagement of the economy was so complete that even admirals and general agreed that defence budgets had to be constrained to save the country from a depression.

The source of the sense that Liberals are anti-military is Trudeau.  And he, and his Liberals – amongst whom we must number Jean Chrétien and Stephane Dion, were and still are anti-military.  There is a pro-military (or, at least, less anti-military) wing of the Liberal Party of Canada led, probably and partially, by Michael Ignatieff and Keith Martin but to long as the Trudeauites remain so will adherence to his acts of policy madness.

 

[Flip]

To whom do we refer when we use the term "liberal"?

It would be a shame if we meant literally - The Liberal Party and supporters.
I know for a fact there are a few honest and not so loopy liberals of this type.
And remember, next to the Taliban we are all wildly liberal.

My "persons of interest" list includes the likes of Taliban Jack, people who write for
or subscribe to the Toronto Star, Nancy Pelosi and of course Stephan Dion.
Eric Margolis sticks out as a very bright liberal, I guess that's why I get so mad at him.

I look forward to a reasoned logical argument from the relative left.
I have not yet read one. I keep looking.............

Really, I think we all concede the need to fair and even handed.
We generally do respect the right to differing opinions on this board.
I think we all agree that abuse isn't what we are here for. (to give or receive)

But personally, I feel the liberal perspective in our current situation offers us little
and is indeed dangerous.  The conspiracy theories, the anti Americanism,
the noble or self righteous ignorance of the people in that camp scares the hell out of me.

Defeatism in the media and the refusal to mention anything positive about our military
, is a blight on our national psyche. 

The baby boomers sense of entitlement ( and I am one )
and the belief that everything will be fine if we are just - nice - ,is so misguided.

That's why liberals take it on the chin.

It's nothing at all like the way some of "us" would be treated on some
"liberal" boards.








 

 

 

[CougarKing]

Traditionally - over, say, the past 100 years - the Liberals were NOT any more anti-military than the Conservatives.

The source of the sense that Liberals are anti-military is Trudeau.  And he, and his Liberals – amongst whom we must number Jean Chrétien and Stephane Dion, were and still are anti-military.  There is a pro-military (or, at least, less anti-military) wing of the Liberal Party of Canada led, probably and partially, by Michael Ignatieff and Keith Martin but to long as the Trudeauites remain so will adherence to his acts of policy madness.

+1 Campbell. I agree. The Liberals should use this time as the "Loyal Opposition" to clean house.