So You Want to be Charles Atlas

[Frosty_47]

I know that excessive weight is usually more common but being 6'3'' at 160Lb does not give me
any back or shoulder support. I can use some good expertise as on how to gain weight which seems
impossible with my my ultra-fast metabolism. I am scheduled for BMQ next summer, so I want to build
good back support for all that heavy weight-carry exercises. I don't have much experience with machines
in the gym as my past sport was swimming.

-Thanks




[Edit to spell "weight" correctly so that people using the SEARCH function will be able to find this topic more easily.]

 

[MSEng314]

We had a guy like that in our platoon, our sergeant kept telling him "Get a dessert, and put butter on it! Better yet, get TWO desserts!"  ;D

All seriousness though, if you want to gain muscle mass, you have to train in 'hypertrophy' meaning 3-4 sets of around 12 reps with about 80% of your max weight. You will be doing that with the PSP staff when you go to the weight room at your BMQ, but I'm sure if you do some searching on Google, or on this site you could find some good workout plans.

Good luck!

 

[Ascendant]

At 6'3, 160, you should be able to put on considerable weight.

It's a matter of calories in vs. calories out, man. Your body needs 16 calories per pound of BW just to maintain it's weight. If you're looking to gain, you want to obviously be eating 17+ times your BW in calories.

If you want to get big and strong, take a look at Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" or Bill Starr's 5x5. You can Google both of them. Mark Rippetoe is universally accepted as the authority on beginner strength training.

No matter what program you do, you have to make sure it has squats (full squats, not quarter squats or half squats), deadlifts and some sort of exercise where you are putting weight over your head. (Strict overhead press, push press, jerks, split jerks. One of them, but to start, I'd stick with SOHP or push press.) You'll then want to add in some assistance exercises. Rows, pullups, chin ups, hypers, etc.

One thing the guy above was right about was the dessert thing. Eat. When you think you can't eat anymore, eat what you have already eaten again. Drink whole milk. None of this skim garbage. Eat calorie dense food. Eat nuts, use olive oil where you can.

I absolutely 100% disagree with the guy saying do 3-4 sets of 12 reps. No. Start off doing either 3 sets of 5 or 5 sets of 5. Training solely for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (increasing the volume of the sarcoplasm, but no increas ein the number of muscle fibers) is a bad way to go, especially for practical application. Sure, higher reps have their place for assistance work, to add more size, but for your main lifts, you want to using 5 or less reps. This will lead to myofibrillar hypertrophy (actual increase in the number of muscle fibers) and strength gains. Sure, training for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy might lead you to look a little bigger, but you want to be strong, not just look it, right? If you're eating enough and lifting heavy, using compound lifts, you will blow up in size, especially where you're starting from, period. I am a member of a strength and power forum and there was this skinny guy who started lifting heavy and eating big and he put on 35 lbs in three months.

I would advocate lifting three days a week. If you're lifting 5 days a week, like some people do, where's the recovery time? You don't get bigger in the gym, you get bigger in the kitchen and when you sleep. If there's no rest time, there's no growth and no progression. You can't lift heavy, using compound movements, five days a week and expect to make progress.

Take a log book to the gym. You should strive for more weight each week. Adding 5 lbs a week will get you to where you want to go.

I hope this post was helpful and if you want, I can put you onto some sources for some more info. Strength and size aren't the only things you need to be military fit, but at your weight, you could definitely use more of both.

Disclaimer: I have no official certifications, only what I read and am taught from those much, much stronger and vastly more experienced than myself. I consider lifting for strength a passion of mine. I just learn how to get big and strong from people who are big and strong.

 

[MSEng314]

If more reps with less weight only makes you "look" bigger, I wonder why the PSP make us train that way?

Curious...

 

[ballz]

I'll keep my opinions about the PSP training at St. Jean to myself, but...

The fact of the matter is the only way to get bigger and stronger is to tear your muscles to shreds, and then eat like a mofo, and your body will use what you are eating to recover and fix all those little tears, and in the process prepare your muscles to be more ready for it "next time." This is just your body adapting to the new work load you put on it, which is why you always need to keep adding weight and intensity to your workouts to continue improving.

The only way to tear your muscles and make them work like that is with heavy weight. Too much weight to put up for 12 reps. If you're putting it up 12 times, it's simply not heavy enough to do the necessary damage.

I would also question your understanding of what the PSP staff were training you for. Training for strength and power is generally sets of 3-5 reps, and hypertrophy is mostly 6-8, as low as 4 and sometimes up to 10 but rarely and getting a little complex... 12-15 reps is endurance, definitely not hypertrophy, and is what I remember the PSP doing with us and teaching us at the Mega the 4 or 5 times we were in the gym. I do not recall them saying 12-15 reps is hypertrophy and I probably would because I find that quite ridiculous.

You also have to realize the PSP at the Mega have to assume everybody has zero knowledge of weight training and start everybody at ground zero and their goal is really to introduce people to weight training, with very very basic stuff. Anybody with a little experience in the gym had very little to gain from the PSP at the Mega because of those restraints.

 

[Ascendant]

If more reps with less weight only makes you "look" bigger, I wonder why the PSP make us train that way?

Curious...

Here's a great chart showing how the breakdown of reps and what they're effective for:

I believe the chart is from from Rip's book, Practical Programming.

I'll keep my opinions about the PSP training at St. Jean to myself, but...

The fact of the matter is the only way to get bigger and stronger is to tear your muscles to shreds, and then eat like a mofo, and your body will use what you are eating to recover and fix all those little tears, and in the process prepare your muscles to be more ready for it "next time." This is just your body adapting to the new work load you put on it, which is why you always need to keep adding weight and intensity to your workouts to continue improving.

The only way to tear your muscles and make them work like that is with heavy weight. Too much weight to put up for 12 reps. If you're putting it up 12 times, it's simply not heavy enough to do the necessary damage.

I would also question your understanding of what the PSP staff were training you for. Training for strength and power is generally sets of 3-5 reps, and hypertrophy is mostly 6-8, as low as 4 and sometimes up to 10 but rarely and getting a little complex... 12-15 reps is endurance, definitely not hypertrophy, and is what I remember the PSP doing with us and teaching us at the Mega the 4 or 5 times we were in the gym. I do not recall them saying 12-15 reps is hypertrophy and I probably would because I find that quite ridiculous.

You also have to realize the PSP at the Mega have to assume everybody has zero knowledge of weight training and start everybody at ground zero and their goal is really to introduce people to weight training, with very very basic stuff. Anybody with a little experience in the gym had very little to gain from the PSP at the Mega because of those restraints.

You get stronger via improved CNS (central nervous system) function, or neural adaption. I'll use a bicep curl as an example, because it is the easiest. (I don't like curls) When an untrained person does a curl, their CNS is only recruiting, say 30% (made up number) of their muscle fibers to lift the weight. Well, as that person continues training and continues to use more weight, their CNS adapts and is able to recruit more of the fibers to do the work. (The principal of progressive overload, where you continually place more stress on your body via reps or intensity) So, say, after 5 weeks of training, the person's CNS has is adapting and is now recruiting 40% of their bicep to do the curl. Of course, training for myofibrillar hypertrophy with proper caloric intake will make you bigger, it'll just take longer because (for a beginner) it is very much possible to get stronger without getting bigger. That's where the eating comes in.

I'll use quotes that can explain better than I can:

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy:

During sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the volume of sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cell increases with no accompanying increase in muscular strength

Myofibrillar hypertrophy:

During myofibrillar hypertrophy, the myofibrils, being the actin and myosin contractile proteins, increase in number and add to muscular strength as well as a small increase in the size of the muscle

See the chart I posted above.

You'll see you are way off base with your whole paragraph on reps and their uses. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is indicated as being optimal at 20 reps. Again, see the chart I posted above. In one of the most highly regarded strength programs, the 5/3/1 program, by Jim Wendler, he recommends something he calls "boring, but big" (BBB) for some assistance movements. BBB is 5 sets of 10 reps.

 

[Frosty_47]

Thank you for your explanation and suggestions.
I want to avoid excessive fluid in my muscles (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy) so I will follow Kratos
advise on 5 sets of 5 with a day of break in between sessions.
What exercises should I start with to build up the muscles along the spinal cord ?
Thanks

 

[Ascendant]

You kind of missed the point, I think.

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy isn't bad and has it's place, but it's not something I'd recommend training for solely.

Also, please don't strictly follow anything I've said besides going to the Starting Strength website and following THAT. I'm not a professional, I hold no certifications and don't want anyone to blindly follow anything I say without reading a bit on their own and doing some critical thinking. I'm not saying I'm giving out bad advice or putting out bad info, but you should never blindly follow what anyone says, especially on the internet, without doing some reading/research of your own.

Don't make your own program. Here are some beginner strength programs, with the original Starting Strength at the top: http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/The_Starting_Strength_Novice/Beginner_Programs

It doesn't look like much, but don't add anything to the program. (Save some cardio on off days if you'd like)

I'm assuming you don't know how to perform the exercises, so read the appropriate material on the Starting Strength site and go to YouTube and search Mark Rippetoe, for a more visual approach. Squatting or deadlifting with good form will yield great results. Squatting and deadlifting with improper form will hurt you.

Start light, with perfect form and the gains will come fast. You never want to start too heavy, or else it will catch up to you in a short amount of time. Lifting on Monday, Wednesday and Friday gives you plenty of time to rest.

To answer your last question, deadlifts, power cleans, overhead presses and squats will take care of your back.

Take a log book to the gym. Always. If you don't write stuff down, how do you know how your training/progression is coming?

 

[Fusaki]

Milpoints for Kratos!

Those interested in getting stronger should read and heed the above.

 

[c4th]

I know that excessive weight is usually more common but being 6'3'' at 160Lb does not give me
any back or shoulder support. I can use some good expertise as on how to gain weight which seems
impossible with my my ultra-fast metabolism. I am scheduled for BMQ next summer, so I want to build

I joined the CF in 1992 at the age of 18 6’3.5” 165 lbs.  I needed a waiver from the MO at CFRC because I was well below the BMI.  He said:  “You’re 18.  You’ll gain weight.”  Heck I used to loose weight eating.

Now if you are 35 and 160’ then I guess you might as well get used to being underweight.  If you’re early 20’s or teens like I was don’t sweat it.  You’ll start gaining weight by 25.  What I recommend is get a girlfriend who can cook.  I put on 10 lbs a year for about 4 or 5 years after I met my spouse.  Stopped the upward spiral in time with running and dropped 20lbs in a month.  Consider yourself lucky.

Really, underweight is far better than overweight.  Fast metabolism is better than a slow one.  Will you be able to throw 200lbs a side on the bench  press and lift it.  Not anytime soon.  But I’d would not trade it for the running speed.
At 160 you shouldn’t be so upper body bankrupt that you can’t complete a ruck march or a demanding  field exercise.  A bit of upper body exercise will make it easier.  But from experience I wouldn’t be too worried.

I’ve spent 17ish years in the infantry.  Toughening up comes with time and miles.  Stay fit but don’t worry too much about looking good in the gym. 

 

[Ascendant]

I joined the CF in 1992 at the age of 18 6’3.5” 165 lbs.  I needed a waiver from the MO at CFRC because I was well below the BMI.  He said:  “You’re 18.  You’ll gain weight.”  Heck I used to loose weight eating.

Now if you are 35 and 160’ then I guess you might as well get used to being underweight.  If you’re early 20’s or teens like I was don’t sweat it.  You’ll start gaining weight by 25.  What I recommend is get a girlfriend who can cook.  I put on 10 lbs a year for about 4 or 5 years after I met my spouse.  Stopped the upward spiral in time with running and dropped 20lbs in a month.  Consider yourself lucky.

Then you weren't eating enough. 6'4, 165 is crazy.

If you are 35 and 160 lbs, you just need to eat more. It would actually become easier to put on weight as you get older.

In any case, it doesn't matter, because it all boils down to calories in vs. calories out. That holds true if you're 20 or 100.

 

[c4th]

Then you weren't eating enough. 6'4, 165 is crazy.

Not crazy.  This is crazy:

According to the 2004 CCHS, 23.1% of Canadians aged 18 or older, an estimated 5.5 million adults, had a body mass index (BMI) of 30 or more, indicating that they were obese

My enlistment weight was within the medically recomended range of 156-205lbs and with a BMI of 20.1 was only slightly lower than the normal weight threshold of 20.7. 

Canadians, military included err on the side of heavy.  My point to the OP was that being light to the point of slightly underweight is not a limitation.  If there is no good reason to bulk up, I recommend don’t. 

 

[Ascendant]

Not crazy.  This is crazy:
My enlistment weight was within the medically recomended range of 156-205lbs and with a BMI of 20.1 was only slightly lower than the normal weight threshold of 20.7. 

Canadians, military included err on the side of heavy.  My point to the OP was that being light to the point of slightly underweight is not a limitation.  If there is no good reason to bulk up, I recommend don’t.

While that 23.1% is undoubtedly made up of fat people, you do realise the BMI is absolute garbage, right? At 5'10, ~205 lbs, I'm five pounds away from being considered obese. 5'10, 210 lbs is not obese.

Wait, so the medically recommended range for someone who is 6'4 is 156-205? 6'4, 156 is a skeleton.

Bulk up to get bigger, stronger and faster?

If I'm 6'4, I'd probably like to weigh no less than 225.

 

[DexOlesa]

at 5'9" I'm supposed to be 150-170 at 175 is where i like to be (i'm quite a bit north of that right now but thats another thread)  175-180 has always been a good weight for me 170 makes me gaunt and sickly looking 150 and i'd be dead. I have huge shoulders and a huge chest, and quite muscular legs. BMI doesn't work for me (or most people) anymore

 

[Ascendant]

Exactly. At 5'10", the last "healthy/normal" weight is 179.

That's ridiculous.

 

[Major_Malfunction]

Some really good advice here mate... But take that BMI chart and throw it in the trash where it belongs! I'm 6' 220lbs which is WAY aver where I should be according to that chart. It says i should be 190lbs... no thanks.

Everyone is different. It's great to use charts, graphs, and workout plans as a guide, but you really have to do what's best for your body. Sadly, it's all about trial and error. You're going to have to put some work into it and help your body figure out what works best for YOU.

At 6' 220lbs, I can run 5K in under 30 mins (which isn't bad) do pushups and situps til the cows come home. I'm not saying everyone who is 6' should bulk up, but it just goes to show how everyone is different compared to what some chart says.

6'3" 160lbs, your metabolism is SICK! As a personal trainer and someone with certs in nutrition, the first thing I'd say is EAT.

Heard it before... I know. But what I mean, is you really have to load up the calories.

It was funny when I went through the interview process and the gentleman gave me the list of drugs and all the other illegal items on it. I filled out that I have taken steroids and other prohormones when I was a kid. It didn't seem to be a big deal since it's been about 12 years since I tried any of that stuff.

I'm not saying you should try any of that garbage (and that's what it is, garbage) but doing that stuff showed me exactly how my body worked. To build muscle, I needed food... and lots of it. There were times when I ate well over 4000 calories in a day. It seemed like all I did was eat, sleep, workout, and go to school. sadly, it was exactly like that. Even at 245lbs, I had trouble staying big if I didn't eat enough.

SO, of course, once I smartened up and got away from those chemicals, I continued to work out and eat right. I trimmed out and kept some really thick/dense muscle. And although many people who have just as many certifications as I do may completely oppose what I have to say, All I can say is that it worked for me and I'm sure if you get to know your body a little, it may work for you...

I believe in a slow gain. Don't rush out and start eating 5000 calories a day. Take a week, write down everytihng you eat and then put it into a calorie program like fitday.com (I love this one) Next, look at your scores. How many calories are you eating per day? what is the ratio between protein/carbs/fat? Then, decide where changes must be made.

(again, I'm not telling you that you should o  this, but this is what worked for me)

A typical protein/carb/fat ratio should be 40%/40%/20%
= 100% just so we're on the same page

There will be a small pie chart to show you the %'s

Next, let's say you're only eating 1500-1900 calories per day. Well, for someone who wants to gain weight (mostly muscle mass cuz let's be honest, you're going to gain fat too) you're going to have to eat more!!

Try adding 150 calories into your diet each week until you start to see some gains. I know, it's slow, but it's better than adding 500 a week and ending up with sick amounts of bodyfat and liver issues...

Keep doing that until you start to see real gains in your strength and muscle mass. Use the mirror, scales are a pain and they just get in the way of real training. But,if you need that sort of stimulus... weigh yourself once a month.

As for the workout routine... it's hit or miss. Low rep/heavy weight or moderate rep/moderate weight... Pick a weight and do 10 reps. If you struggle to do 10, then that's your weight and your goal is 12! When 12 gets easy... increase the weight.  3-4 sets are fine... don't spend your life in the gym. Try to be in and out of there in an hour unless you do cardio...

That's basically it. Oh, and take a multi vitamin! lol

the rest is up to you and your body.. it'll let you now what's working.

Good luck!

 

[Ascendant]

See, I'm kind of different.

Honestly, I eat whatever I want. I gauge my eating/weight gain by my ab visibility (lol).

It's easy for me, because honestly, I don't do it to look good. I do it to add more weight to the bar every week. Looks don't count in powerlifting.

I went from about 177-195 in about 3.5 months and sit at about 205 now. I don't eat all that often, I just make sure what I do eat is extremely calorically dense.

I do one set of 5 a month on my main lifts (in the first week of my four week training cycle) and the rest are four and below. Higher reps work is reserved for assistance movements.

I don't quite get when you said you needed pharmaceuticals/AAS to figure out how your body worked. If anything, that would be a poor way to find that out, seeing as the results/impact of AAS/PHs would only occur while on cycle and never be reproduced naturally.

Have you used a real AAS, or just PHs? I would think I wouldn't have to explain to you that real steroids are actually safer than prohormones in most, if not all cases, right?

 

[Major_Malfunction]

Yeah... I know NOW that they are safer  lol  M1T was FAR more dangerous than some of the cocktails I was on. I am always SO thankful that I never got hit with any M1T side effects... *shivers*

And what I meant by that is that when I was young, I thought all I had to do was take them and work out... then I'd get big. I slowly realized that it still took a TON of food to put on the kind of size that I wanted. I learned a lot about the way my body works.

It actually took someone smacking me int he back of the head one day to figure out that food was the main staple in bulking up... chemical help or not. I was closer to getting Gyno than I was to getting big before I learned more about nutrition. (hence the multitude of certifications I went and got myself)

As a man in my 30's though, after all the stuff I've tried and whatnot, I love the fact that I can train hard, eat clean, and pretty much shape my body the way I want... as much as it sucks, trial and error is a great tool.
Expensive... but great!

 

[Ascendant]

Yeah... I know NOW that they are safer  lol  M1T was FAR more dangerous than some of the cocktails I was on. I am always SO thankful that I never got hit with any M1T side effects... *shivers*

And what I meant by that is that when I was young, I thought all I had to do was take them and work out... then I'd get big. I slowly realized that it still took a TON of food to put on the kind of size that I wanted. I learned a lot about the way my body works.

It actually took someone smacking me int he back of the head one day to figure out that food was the main staple in bulking up... chemical help or not. I was closer to getting Gyno than I was to getting big before I learned more about nutrition. (hence the multitude of certifications I went and got myself)

As a man in my 30's though, after all the stuff I've tried and whatnot, I love the fact that I can train hard, eat clean, and pretty much shape my body the way I want... as much as it sucks, trial and error is a great tool.
Expensive... but great!

So basically, you were looking for a quick fix? Way to use pharmaceuticals when you're at your peak test production, anyway...

I still don't know why you needed them to figure out the simple fact of calories in > calories out = weight gain.

It doesn't take certifications, rocket science or anything else to realise that. "Hmm, I'm not gaining weight, maybe I should eat more."

A vast majority of supplements are garbage. Whey and creatine monohydrate are pretty cheap. I don't get the expensive part.

 

[Major_Malfunction]

So basically, you were looking for a quick fix? Way to use pharmaceuticals when you're at your peak test production, anyway...

Absolutely! But, when you're young and don't know any better...
I still don't know why you needed them to figure out the simple fact of calories in > calories out = weight gain.

Again, it sounds all relative now, but when you're young and ignorant of a subject, sadly, trial and error are going to be your professors. I'm just lucky I didn't get hurt.

It doesn't take certifications, rocket science or anything else to realise that. "Hmm, I'm not gaining weight, maybe I should eat more."

Again, NOW I know all this. As a kid, you don't usually put two and two together. Finding out how wrong I was made me do something about it... hense the certs...

A vast majority of supplements are garbage. Whey and creatine monohydrate are pretty cheap. I don't get the expensive part.

And yet again... the only way to find out the vast majority of supplements are garbage is to try them. And that gets expenssive.

Guys like me (and probably you as well) have gone from trying everything to learning that all you need is whole foods and maybe a protein supplement if you live a busy lifestyle or just need the extra protein.

Compared to 15 years ago... I'm a damn rocket scientist when it comes to this stuff. Back then... I'm lucky I made it out in once piece.

However... back on subject (sorry to divert) The big thing is, is that you need to get those calories in to put on some  body mass. It's not going to start lean, but you can fix that with diet later. A lot of guys have this immage of being this big, monsterous ripped guy and what they don't realize is that a lot of work goes into it. The majority of pro body builders (who are ALL juiced up) get fat as hell while they're bulking up. It's just the way it is... massive amounts of calories are going to do that to you. Later on, you change the diet, add more cardio...and they shred.

I totally think you should stay away from this type of routine. Remember, the CF wants strong, fast, with lots of endurance. I doubt (don't quote me on this) they'd care if you're some huge hulking beast if you can't even run 5K.

I'd say train to be fit... You can still add the calories in slowly and maintain a high level of endurance. (including muscle endurance) You'll gain weight; that wont be an issue. Just don't be too eager to do it. That's when you can hurt yourself.

Depending on what you want out of your workouts, all I'd say is to train for what you're about to put yourself through.

I'm hitting BMQ in the summer and my personal workout (I'm not saying this will work for you but this is what work for me) is VERY basic.

I train Muay Thai 5 days a week
I lift 2 days a week (only basic lifts - bench, squat, deadlifts, pullups)
I run 3-5K 4 days a week
I take 2 days off
I eat whatever I want 1 day a week (within reason)

I'm  6' , 220lbs-ish and I'm in the best shape of my life. Ignote that BMI thing and just concentrate on how you feel and what the mirror is telling you.

I really don't feel like debating who's right and wrong anymore, so if you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

Good luck!