Well then, you should go protest the decision. Go start a chain email and see how far you get. In any case, you disagree with the law, so are you going to support it in any case. Or are you going to disregard it because you are part of a majority? Not the world I want to live in.
The Caledonia, Ontario Superthread.
- Thread starter SHELLDRAKE!!
- Start date
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- 210
Guess said:
No I actually don't.. Because I don't have a flying clue what your talking about?? The only thing that comes to mind is ROME and the ancient Roman empire... Which... Strangely enough :
has no coincidence or relation to anything in this entire thread.... Are you a space-cadet? Maybe your just so far above me you lost me with your intelligent rebuttle...
I answered that lad's questions and this is the response you give me? Grow up, come back when you've had a serving of common sense!
I'd almost report that post of yours to the mods for trolling but it doesn't bother me because it's so baseless, pointless and rediculous.
Enjoy your folly.
C
couchcommander
Guest
What does that have to do with anything?
You scoffed when I said that people should respect the decisions of the court and said go read those decisions. I had heard of those decisions before, but didn't know the names, so ended up wasting 30 minutes reading them rather than you just actually making a point.
.... I am still waiting for a point to be made. Those are decisions in regards to aboriginal rights. IF THEY HAVE AN application in this regard, the six nations can sue citing them...
That has little to do with engaging in an illegal occupation of land, assaulting officers, and being in contempt of court.
*edit* R031 Pte Joe is right. Do you have a point or should the mods just lock this thread?
I'm unfamiliar with trolling or reporting but I will refrain from putting it in your face to make a point in the future becaue I think I have offended you. I just don't understand why we can't respect the actions of other for things we would do in their place. It doesn't justify their conduct, but it should temper the way that we react. Fact of life: a bunch of bankrobbers occupying a roadblock of burning tires would be dead by now. Natives protesting their title to land, No. Never. Not in my country. Because this country is not run by fascists.
Please. Please don't tell me you are familiar with those decisions. I took the time to go and find those quotes for you because I thought they were relevant. If you read them, then the time was not wasted.
Yes, lock down the thread because a different opinion is being expressed. Help us.
I thought we were grown ups here making serious arguments. Violence is not for children. We live in a democracy. Violence is a last option. It requires serious justification and responsible application. When I intervened in this thread I heard neither in the comments being posted. I would not kid myself that I can change any of your opinions, but I would hope you would at least think about the seriousness consequences of some of your opinions. The world is not such a simple place as some of you act. At least, think about the other side of the argument once in a while.
Chrissakes, boys, we're on the same side.
Yes, lock down the thread because a different opinion is being expressed. Help us.
I thought we were grown ups here making serious arguments. Violence is not for children. We live in a democracy. Violence is a last option. It requires serious justification and responsible application. When I intervened in this thread I heard neither in the comments being posted. I would not kid myself that I can change any of your opinions, but I would hope you would at least think about the seriousness consequences of some of your opinions. The world is not such a simple place as some of you act. At least, think about the other side of the argument once in a while.
Chrissakes, boys, we're on the same side.
- Reaction score
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Guess,
I'm not really sure what your opinion on this is.
Your posts range from absolute stupidity;
to unquatifiable ranting;
to linking some largely irrelevant legal cases to your posts.
The only point that you have articulated is that you disagree with Natives being bound by Canadian Law, which is a pretty weak point, but whatever.
To get your head around the way many of us feel about this, think of it this way.
The whole reason all industrialised nations have a "no negotiating with terrorists" policy, is that it fosters more terrorism. This means that we (as a society) do not bargain or deal with people who use force as a method of achieving their goals, with an important caveat being the state, which we grant with a monopoly on the use of force. The state's "force" is manifested in the form of the courts, Law enforcement and on the international (and more rarely) domestic scene, the military.
When Natives choose to forgo the use of the legal system, and resort to force themselves, they place themselves above the law, and their desires as well. This is not acceptable. The whole reason we have peace, order and good (sic) government is that we (as a people) acknowledge that we are all equal under the law - no one gets special treatment and the courts get the final say.
If the Native terrorists are negotiated with, they will have achieved their goals of winning concessions outside the legal system. This will not solve the problem, it will practically guarantee that whenever Natives in any part of the country disagree with a legal ruling, their will be piles of burning tires and blocked highways, and in a worst case scenario, people hurt or killed.
This also sends a message that other crimes, like assaulting police officers and stealing property is acceptable, as long as one is of a minority group, and uses sufficient violence to garner media attention. Perhaps organised Labour or the Gay lobby could take a page from this book.... To quote you "Not the type of country I'd like to live in..."
No, the aggressive suppression of these domestic terrorists will be distasteful at first, but will reap dividends in the future, when we are not forced to endure another Oka or Ipperwash.
I'm not really sure what your opinion on this is.
Your posts range from absolute stupidity;
to unquatifiable ranting;
to linking some largely irrelevant legal cases to your posts.
The only point that you have articulated is that you disagree with Natives being bound by Canadian Law, which is a pretty weak point, but whatever.
To get your head around the way many of us feel about this, think of it this way.
The whole reason all industrialised nations have a "no negotiating with terrorists" policy, is that it fosters more terrorism. This means that we (as a society) do not bargain or deal with people who use force as a method of achieving their goals, with an important caveat being the state, which we grant with a monopoly on the use of force. The state's "force" is manifested in the form of the courts, Law enforcement and on the international (and more rarely) domestic scene, the military.
When Natives choose to forgo the use of the legal system, and resort to force themselves, they place themselves above the law, and their desires as well. This is not acceptable. The whole reason we have peace, order and good (sic) government is that we (as a people) acknowledge that we are all equal under the law - no one gets special treatment and the courts get the final say.
If the Native terrorists are negotiated with, they will have achieved their goals of winning concessions outside the legal system. This will not solve the problem, it will practically guarantee that whenever Natives in any part of the country disagree with a legal ruling, their will be piles of burning tires and blocked highways, and in a worst case scenario, people hurt or killed.
This also sends a message that other crimes, like assaulting police officers and stealing property is acceptable, as long as one is of a minority group, and uses sufficient violence to garner media attention. Perhaps organised Labour or the Gay lobby could take a page from this book.... To quote you "Not the type of country I'd like to live in..."
No, the aggressive suppression of these domestic terrorists will be distasteful at first, but will reap dividends in the future, when we are not forced to endure another Oka or Ipperwash.
- Reaction score
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Wow! What a thread. I go in for afternoons, and this cluster pops up! I can't believe that someone would be arguing for breaking the law so ardently and so poorly.
First. Dudley George. He is dead, because he jumped off a school bus filled with other armed natives with a shot gun and aimed it into a bush line where the OPP TRU team was set up. George got waxed, a short firefight ensued. The Provincial govt at the time caved in like a rotten watermelon when they realized that if they accepted the truth about what happened, they would have to admit that there are natives that are heavily armed and willing to shoot at police officers. Huge implications.
Next. In order to enforce the law, you need both lawful right, and political desire. Natives and other special groups break the law over and over, as do protesters that enjoy vandalism over message delivering. The law does not change from scene to scene. What is constant is the lack of political will to do anything about it. We see here, in this pathetic bit of yellow stripe governing:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/cbc/s/21042006/3/canada-trains-halted-standoff-continues-caledonia.html
Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty was quick to say that his government had in no way influenced the police decision to remove the demonstrators. He said he would take as much time as needed to settle the dispute peacefully. Gee Dalton, spit or...?
And of course, the CBC keeps calling them "protesters". They are no longer "protesters", they are "trespassers" and should be dealt with.
As with Quebec, there is now an entire culture of people who believe that they are owed the world just by the sheer grace of their birth. What is maddening is that there are so many successful native groups, who never show up on the radar because they don't act like jackasses. My sister is an OPP patrol officer in Orillia, and she has nothing bad to say about the natives in that area.
So why can't a group of natives come in and pull these jackasses off of the site if it is so unreasonable for the police to do it? Because then they will be accused of being "apples" and be shamed. More important to condone the unlawfulness "in solidarity" than to take action against it.
Should they be clubbed and gassed. No. Simply arrest one at a time, and charge them with anything that applies. At such time as a riot ensues, apply clubs and gas as needed. Remember: ARWIN rhymes with OUR WIN.
To say that no one can protest without breaking the law should be on a top ten list of jackassy things said on this site. I would agree that nobody seems to WANT to protest without breaking the law, and the media encourages it by not giving enough attention to peaceful protests. However, once the line is crossed, it is game on.
First. Dudley George. He is dead, because he jumped off a school bus filled with other armed natives with a shot gun and aimed it into a bush line where the OPP TRU team was set up. George got waxed, a short firefight ensued. The Provincial govt at the time caved in like a rotten watermelon when they realized that if they accepted the truth about what happened, they would have to admit that there are natives that are heavily armed and willing to shoot at police officers. Huge implications.
Next. In order to enforce the law, you need both lawful right, and political desire. Natives and other special groups break the law over and over, as do protesters that enjoy vandalism over message delivering. The law does not change from scene to scene. What is constant is the lack of political will to do anything about it. We see here, in this pathetic bit of yellow stripe governing:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/cbc/s/21042006/3/canada-trains-halted-standoff-continues-caledonia.html
Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty was quick to say that his government had in no way influenced the police decision to remove the demonstrators. He said he would take as much time as needed to settle the dispute peacefully. Gee Dalton, spit or...?
And of course, the CBC keeps calling them "protesters". They are no longer "protesters", they are "trespassers" and should be dealt with.
As with Quebec, there is now an entire culture of people who believe that they are owed the world just by the sheer grace of their birth. What is maddening is that there are so many successful native groups, who never show up on the radar because they don't act like jackasses. My sister is an OPP patrol officer in Orillia, and she has nothing bad to say about the natives in that area.
So why can't a group of natives come in and pull these jackasses off of the site if it is so unreasonable for the police to do it? Because then they will be accused of being "apples" and be shamed. More important to condone the unlawfulness "in solidarity" than to take action against it.
Should they be clubbed and gassed. No. Simply arrest one at a time, and charge them with anything that applies. At such time as a riot ensues, apply clubs and gas as needed. Remember: ARWIN rhymes with OUR WIN.
To say that no one can protest without breaking the law should be on a top ten list of jackassy things said on this site. I would agree that nobody seems to WANT to protest without breaking the law, and the media encourages it by not giving enough attention to peaceful protests. However, once the line is crossed, it is game on.
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To me it seems pretty clear. There is only one law in Canada and that is Canadian law which applies to all Canadians regardless of race or colour. I think guess is trying to say that there is a seperate law that applies to only natives.
If society is to follow a set of rules, then how can you have portions of that society act outside those rules without repercussions?
It is my belief that the only reason the police have not arrested and charged these tresspassers, is because (much like all things military) the average Canadian is led to believe the police are bullies picking on a few grandparents and children peacefully protesting.
If the media used terms such as tresspassers and provided a list of the amount of police related injuries, I think the general public would get behind the police in prosecuting these thugs. The matter is an issue in the courts and no matter what your side is, there is never a reason to take law into your own hands.
If society is to follow a set of rules, then how can you have portions of that society act outside those rules without repercussions?
It is my belief that the only reason the police have not arrested and charged these tresspassers, is because (much like all things military) the average Canadian is led to believe the police are bullies picking on a few grandparents and children peacefully protesting.
If the media used terms such as tresspassers and provided a list of the amount of police related injuries, I think the general public would get behind the police in prosecuting these thugs. The matter is an issue in the courts and no matter what your side is, there is never a reason to take law into your own hands.
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This is no longer a "race" issue.....( if members of same race being at odds can be considered racist)...
Given that the standoff is drawing the rabble rousers, militants and hard cases of the Warrior Society like moths to the flame, expect this to get worse.......
Given that the standoff is drawing the rabble rousers, militants and hard cases of the Warrior Society like moths to the flame, expect this to get worse.......
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Yup, OCAP will be there soon to call them all homeless..........that and the hardship of cashing a welfare cheque while manning a blockade for two months.
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Protesters who wish to stand on their moral belief in the justice of their cause serve a role in society by taking a stand, being arrested, and having their day in court. Nelson Mandella did more for his cause by standing trial and going to prison, drawing attention to the plight of his people, and forcing an examination of the issues, than his wife did with her "soccer club" of violent thugs. If the natives believe in the justice of their cause, stand bare faced, allow yourself to be arrested, and have your day, and your say in court. If the natives are nothing but vandals and bandits, continue to cover your face like a thief, burn tresspass and destroy like a terrorist, and be ready to die like the dog that you are. Thus always to bandits.
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If you were blindfolded in a field of wrong, would you not be exempted from the wrongness of the field by virtue of the blindfold and thus immune to it's influence? And thus not being influenced by the wrongness of said field, by default, be the only thing in it that was right?
Zertz, I think that Guess is complimenting you in his own convoluted bass akwards way. Or maybe just crying out for help. Either or. ???
Zertz, I think that Guess is complimenting you in his own convoluted bass akwards way. Or maybe just crying out for help. Either or. ???
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Funnily enough Bruce, I saw two guys from the John Howard society on TV hanging out wit der "homies" at the barricades......
Getting a jump on the process eh?
Not to mention the other Barton Street (Ir) regulars who showed up for inmate solidarity day with their native comrades!
Getting a jump on the process eh?
Not to mention the other Barton Street (Ir) regulars who showed up for inmate solidarity day with their native comrades!
FormerHorseGuard
Sr. Member
- Reaction score
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I think it is time to say enough is enough, protest is over go home or we will send you home. I do not want this to be like some of the protest outcomes in the States, where the National Guard, police and the natives get into a huge gun battle, I do not want to see troops sent to remove them. (Wounded Knee 1973
No Canadian Soldier wants to walk a line again with a weapon pointed at fellow Canadians, even if they are in the wrong or breaking a law. Soldiers should never be used to enforce laws, government orders in their own country, the soldier will always come out looking bad afterwards no matter how well they do the job given to them. No one wants to see " media reporting Tanks deployed to Southern Ontario" not that it will be a tank, but we all know the media will say it was tank because it looked like a tank, guys in green drove it, had a gun on it, must be a tank. I think the police should do the job this time, remove the protesters, remove the road blocks after checking for boobytraps, ( propane tanks buried in the sand like Oka) then reopen the roads for the various repairs needed and put the protesters in jail and let the courts decide on the punishment, who was right and who was wrong and who owns the land.
let everyone have a chance to show their side to a judge and be done with it.
If they do decide to remove them by force, I hope the natives decide to give in before anyone gets hurt, i do not want to read police kill a protester, excessive force used, or do i want to read police officers hurt or killed by protesters. No one needs to get hurt. the native band has high priced lawyers, let they solve it in the court room and let the lawyers battle it out, cheaper for everyone.
i was at Ipperwash, I have some knowledge of what I say. Native Protesters have their own set of rules and the governement has their own set. Never equal. I am not a pro police or pro native group in these protests. I just want it over.
No Canadian Soldier wants to walk a line again with a weapon pointed at fellow Canadians, even if they are in the wrong or breaking a law. Soldiers should never be used to enforce laws, government orders in their own country, the soldier will always come out looking bad afterwards no matter how well they do the job given to them. No one wants to see " media reporting Tanks deployed to Southern Ontario" not that it will be a tank, but we all know the media will say it was tank because it looked like a tank, guys in green drove it, had a gun on it, must be a tank. I think the police should do the job this time, remove the protesters, remove the road blocks after checking for boobytraps, ( propane tanks buried in the sand like Oka) then reopen the roads for the various repairs needed and put the protesters in jail and let the courts decide on the punishment, who was right and who was wrong and who owns the land.
let everyone have a chance to show their side to a judge and be done with it.
If they do decide to remove them by force, I hope the natives decide to give in before anyone gets hurt, i do not want to read police kill a protester, excessive force used, or do i want to read police officers hurt or killed by protesters. No one needs to get hurt. the native band has high priced lawyers, let they solve it in the court room and let the lawyers battle it out, cheaper for everyone.
i was at Ipperwash, I have some knowledge of what I say. Native Protesters have their own set of rules and the governement has their own set. Never equal. I am not a pro police or pro native group in these protests. I just want it over.
Gunnar
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
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Protests are not about filling out government forms, nor do they need approval by the government--that's the point...the government needs approval by the people!. This kind of legislation flies in the teeth of a free society. Once you accept that the government has a RIGHT to limit your protests, either in scope, time, walking speed, etc., etc....you've effectively killed the ability of the populace to protest an unjust government.
"Protests must be held in an industrial district, not on private property, between the hours of 3 - 4 AM. Protest chants may not exceed 25 decibels. Protesters must wear striped clothing with appropriately issued "protest" numbers stitched on the back."
Fomenting insurrection, damage to private and public property, etc., etc. are all amply covered by THE LAW.
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I don't care who protests what, so long as they don't infringe on the rights and freedoms of the rest of society. Protest and civil disobedience are not synonymous concepts, no matter what the anarchists and law breakers would try have you believe.
C
couchcommander
Guest
There is nothing about approval in the bylaw.
The City is just asking to be informed if you are planning on shutting down roadways.
If you want to keep it on the sidewalk, they really don't care.
*edit* I should add, I don't necessarily agree with it. The question was asked, and that is the answer. *shrug*
The City is just asking to be informed if you are planning on shutting down roadways.
If you want to keep it on the sidewalk, they really don't care.
*edit* I should add, I don't necessarily agree with it. The question was asked, and that is the answer. *shrug*
A
aesop081
Guest
SHELLDRAKE!! said:
BINGO !!! (no punt intended but its rather fitting)
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