The Great Gun Control Debate
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Colin Parkinson
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Apparently a lot of the suicides in Japan involve things like; "Committed suicide while his hands were tied behind his back". Seem it's easier to sweep things under the suicide rug making for nice tidy case files that are closed, rather than stirring up things up and leaving open cases hanging. Bad for the Superintendent's performance review.....
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Colin P said:
15 were killed on the University campus. ( Includes one who passed away twenty-five years later. )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting#Whitman_arrives_on_campus
"Charles Whitman killed 12 people..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5IWK9sRYTs
Colin P said:
It was two heroic police officers ( Martinez and McCoy ) who took an elevator to the twenty-seventh floor armed only with their service revolvers and one shotgun who killed him at point blank range.
"In the immediate aftermath, Martinez was nearly shot himself by those on the ground, who did not yet realize that Whitman was dead."
If you are comparing massacres?
As bad as Austin, Texas was in 1966, fifty-nine (including the perpetrator, who shot himself ) were killed four months ago in Las Vegas, with 851 non-fatal injuries ( 422 by gunfire ).
Colin P said:
Not to argue with you, but it's appreciated when a source is provided.
Chief Stoker said:
You are now talking about war-time. I thought you were talking about peace-time?
Chief Stoker said:
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Western society, the US in particular, is more and more entertained by the blood of others. It use to be enough to watch Nick Libbet and Keith Magnuson thump shit out of each other on the ice, or Ali and Frazer in the ring. Now we've got MMA, and people feel cheated if the canvas isn't awash with blood and the losers nose isn't within smelling distance of his/her/its' right ear. The old movies had a body count of maybe a dozen, hell ol' Dirty Harry Callahan was only good for a half dozen or so, now if the body count isn't up in the scores before the opening credits roll, it's a boring movie. Human life is not treated with respect, until it's one of our own that's gone. Rome went circling the drain the exact same way. The big flush should be right around the corner.
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mariomike said:
My point is the propensity for violence in that society doesn't just go away. Like others have said many of the suicides are probably murders covered up because its more honorable to call it a suicide. They have had violent episodes not on the magnitude of the US but still.
1998 Wakayama curry poisoning Four people are killed and 63 injured after eating curry laced with arsenic at a community festival in Wakayama. Masumi Hayashi, the chief suspect, has been sentenced to death and is currently appealing.
1999 Okegawa stalking murder Okegawa, Saitama A stalker, Kazuhito Komatsu, murders 21-year-old Shiori Ino with accomplices. The Police ignores her appeal before the murder and slanders her after the murder. A journalist Kiyoshi Shimizu determines criminals. Komatsu escapes and kills himself in Hokkaido.
2000 Niigata girl confinement incident Tokyo While investigating a domestic disturbance call, police discover a schoolgirl who had been kidnapped in 1990 and held prisoner in an upstairs apartment for over nine years by a mentally disturbed man, Nobuyuki Sato. The girl, Fusako Sano, was returned to her parents while Sato was hospitalized and eventually sentenced to 14 years imprisonment.
2000 Tokyo Bay Sinyo Bay Bank robbery Tokyo . Tominaga Kazuyuki, a career criminal associated with the Yakuza, successfully steals 46,000,000 yen after hijacking a delivery to a pachinko parlor in December 2000. During the robbery, the driver was gunned down by Kazuyuki and an unidentified Chinese accomplice.
2000 Hostess murders Roppongi, Tokyo Joji Obara, a prominent Osaka businessman, murders and dismembers British hostess Lucie Blackman. After the discovery of her body a year later, he was charged with her murder as well as similar charges against Australian hostess Carita Ridgeway and sexual assault charges against six other women. He was found not guilty of murdering Lucie Blackman due to lack of evidence, but was convicted of the other crimes.
2000 Setagaya family murder . Setagaya, Tokyo In an incident which shocked the nation, a family of four are murdered at their home in suburban Tokyo by an unknown intruder. Despite extensive investigations and a huge media coverage, the case remains unsolved.
2001 Hokuryo Clinic Incident Sendai, Miyagi An 89-year-old woman dies mysteriously in Koryo Clinic. Nurse Daisuke Mori is suspected of at least 10 murders. He is arrested for a murder, but he insists that their death are caused by medical errors.
2001 Osaka School Massacre Osaka .37-year-old former janitor Mamoru Takuma entered an elementary school in Osaka, then used a kitchen knife to kill 8 students. He wounded an additional 13 other students and 2 teachers. He was executed in 2004.
2001 Myojo 56 building fire Tokyo A building caught fire in Kabukicho. Three employees can escape by jumping from the third floor of the building, but 44 people are killed by carbon monoxide in the building. The cause is strongly suspected as arson. However security is poor in Kabukicho and customers use false names. The case is still unsolved.
2002 Kitakyushu serial murders .Kitakyūshū Futoshi Matsunaga forces the victims to kill each other, resulting in killing 7 people between 1996 and 1998. Matsunaga and his common-law wife Junko Ogata are arrested in 2002 after a girl escapes from them.
2003 Super Free rape incident . Tokyo Students of Japanese universities in Tokyo rape women in a circle Super Free. Organizer Shinichiro Wada and 13 other members are arrested for gang rapes. The estimated number of rape victims are up to 500.
2003 Fukuoka family murder Fukuoka Businessman Shinjiro Matsumoto, his wife Chika and two children aged 11 and 8 are murdered in a robbery by three Chinese students who broke into their home and dumped their bodies in Hakata Bay. Two of the three - Yang Ning and Wang Liang – fled to China where they were arrested. Yang was executed and Wang sentenced to life imprisonment. The third, Wei Wei, was arrested in Japan and is currently on death row.
2004 Sasebo slashing Sasebo, Nagasaki Satomi Mitarai, a 12-year-old elementary student, is stabbed to death by her classmate at school. The classmate has not been identified for legal reasons.
2004 Ōmuta murders Ōmuta, Fukuoka Mob wife Mami Kitamura murders four people with her husband and two sons. The four perpetrators are sentenced to death.
2004 Murder of Kaede Ariyama Nara Kaede Ariyama, a 7-year-old school girl, is kidnapped and murdered by a local newspaper deliveryman, Kaoru Kobayashi. Following his arrest, he was convicted and sentenced to the death penalty.
2005 Web suicide site murders Osaka Serial killer Hiroshi Maeue murders three people. They are lured by Maeue via the online suicide club. He has been executed.
2005 Murder of Airi Kinoshita Hiroshima, Japan 7-year-old Airi Kinoshita is abducted on her way home from school and killed by wanted Peruvian sex offender Jose Manuel Torres Yake. He was sentenced to life.
2006 Five dead bodies in Hiratsuka Hiratsuka, Kanagawa Five dead bodies are found in Hiratsuka. A woman, Chizuko Okamoto, is arrested for a murder of her daughter, but the case is hardly solved due to lack of evidence and statute of limitations.
2007 Iccho Itoh Murder Nagasaki The mayor of Nagasaki, Iccho Itoh, is shot to death by Tetsuya Shiroo. Shiroo is a member of the Yamaguchi-gumi crime syndicate and was angry over damage to his car that occurred at a city construction site four years earlier.
2007 Murder of Hiroshi Miyamoto Saga and Fukuoka Gangs, who belong to Dojin-kai, dispute about its leader. Kyushu Seido-kai separates from Dojin-kai and they kill each other. They kill six gang members and a civilian, Hiroshi Miyamoto.
2008 Akihabara massacre Akihabara, Tokyo 25-year-old Tomohiro Kato rams a truck into a crowd of shoppers and proceeds to stab the run-down victims, killing six men and one woman and injuring 11 others. The perpetrator is on death row.
2011 Amagasaki Serial Murder Incident Hyogo, Kochi, Kagawa, Okayama, Shiga, Kyoto Miyoko Sumida and her family forces the victims to kill each other, resulting in killing at least 8 people between the 1990s - 2000s. The Sumida family was arrested in 2011, while Miyoko committed suicide in 2012. The investigation is ongoing.
2014 Murder of Aiwa Matsuo Sasebo, Nagasaki 15-year-old Aiwa Matsuo was killed by her friend.
2016 Sagamihara care centre stabbings Sagamihara, Kanagawa A former employee went on a stabbing spree at a facility for people with disabilities in Sagamihara, killing at least 19 people and injuring up to 50 others.
2017 Zama Murders Zama, Kanagawa Nine dead bodies are found in a man's apartment in Zama, Kanagawa.
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Chief Stoker said:
I do not see what WW2 has to do with the murder rate in Japan today?
Chief Stoker said:
Colin typed that, but did not provide a source. Who are the "others"?
Chief Stoker said:
List of countries by intentional homicide rate per year per 100,000 inhabitants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Murder rates per 100,000 inhabitants.
Japan 0.31
USA 4.88
Canada 1.68
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FJAG said:
The legislators are sitting smugly behind their desks comfortable in the knowledge that they have enough security around them in the building to stop a threat at the doors......in comparison to schools..........
Cheers
Larry
Altair
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Trump blames video games and movie for gun violence. Anyone play video games online? Notice the people from countries you play against that have almost no gun violence have people playing with you?
I guess Canada, Japan, & Europe watch different movies and play different video games than people in the United States.
I guess Canada, Japan, & Europe watch different movies and play different video games than people in the United States.
McG
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The "other" (singular because only one person suggested it) were also called on posting doubt-able "facts" with out citing a source. But isn't it great that our level of intellectual debate has risen to the level where one can post a wild-ass assumption, caveat it with "probably", and feel their contribution to the discussion should be accepted with the same weight as those who present statistically relevant and verifiable facts? This is why fake news spreads spreads so easy.Chief Stoker said:
Your long list of anecdotes does not really prove anything either. We know there is murder in Japan, and somebody has already put that into context in a way that means something (with references):
mariomike said:
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MCG said:
Thanks for pointing that out. It seems to me now in the case of Japan being a sort of enigma when it has a long history of violence including use of biological warfare on a populace and heinous war crimes. Like was pointed out a relatively low murder rate with some mass killings but still maintain a low crime rate. I guess its because of its society which is unique cannot be compared to the US or anywhere else.
Eaglelord17
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MCG said:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/02/03/national/media-national/japans-suicide-statistics-dont-tell-the-real-story/#.Wo87ndiWyos
http://www.nationmaster.com/blog/?p=74
https://www.vox.com/world/2015/12/13/9989250/japan-crime-conviction-rate
The third site talks not about the murder rate rather the abusive justice system which allows citizens to be detained and basically tortured for 23 days. Part of the reason Japan has a 98% conviction rate is because it forces 'confessions' out of people, much the same way Iran or China would.
Japan is not a example of a perfect country with next to no murder, it is a example of a country that hides its murders (ever wonder how there suicide rate could be so high? Now you have the answer), and likely would be a excellent country to commit one as they would likely conceal the evidence.
Altair said:
Video games are likely not part of the problem, however when you have a country like Switzerland where most households have a firearm in them (and since the modern service rifle is the SIG 550 essentially a much better AR-15 which many are full auto), yet there is next to no firearms crime clearly it isn't the tool that is the problem.
The USA has a culture problem, and I suspect the 'Echo Chamber' effect could be really aiding causing this issue.
Jarnhamar
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Dave Grossman mentions video games and violence in his books. While I don't agree completely he seems to make sense with some of what he writes about.
I don't think anyone can deny the US worships violence in entertainment. Hollywood makes millions or billions every year from violent movies and TV series. Actors make millions, then often turn around and decry violence ie Liam Nelson.
Sure other cultures share the same fascination with violence but when you mix the US's lack of empathy for other people that contributes to the number of violence acts IMO.
I don't think the democrats are about saving lives as much as they are about banning guns. When that republican was shot look at what people were saying. Too bad the shooter was a bad shot, he should go back and finish the job, he should have used an AR15. Quick to denounce guns and violence until its someone they don't like, then murder is okay. Post a picture of you hunting a deer or bear or lion and people will post on your account talking about skinning your kids alive. People are psychotic.
Japan has their own issues and we know they burry the truth about murder stats but as a society they're still light years ahead of us when it comes to how people generally treat each other. Mindfulness of others. The way they react during natural disasters (putting items back on the shelf and leaving the store) compared to the US says a lot.
I don't think anyone can deny the US worships violence in entertainment. Hollywood makes millions or billions every year from violent movies and TV series. Actors make millions, then often turn around and decry violence ie Liam Nelson.
Sure other cultures share the same fascination with violence but when you mix the US's lack of empathy for other people that contributes to the number of violence acts IMO.
I don't think the democrats are about saving lives as much as they are about banning guns. When that republican was shot look at what people were saying. Too bad the shooter was a bad shot, he should go back and finish the job, he should have used an AR15. Quick to denounce guns and violence until its someone they don't like, then murder is okay. Post a picture of you hunting a deer or bear or lion and people will post on your account talking about skinning your kids alive. People are psychotic.
Japan has their own issues and we know they burry the truth about murder stats but as a society they're still light years ahead of us when it comes to how people generally treat each other. Mindfulness of others. The way they react during natural disasters (putting items back on the shelf and leaving the store) compared to the US says a lot.
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Eaglelord17 said:
QUOTE
Percentage of Swiss keeping a weapon at home
2004 43
2015 11
Since World War II, soldiers serving in the Swiss military kept their weapons and ammunition at home. This gave rise to the famous “gun in every closet” phrase pro-gun lobbyists in the U.S. and elsewhere used to tout Switzerland’s liberal arms law.
But that changed somewhat in 2007, a year after Swiss champion skier Corinne Rey-Bellet and her brother were shot by Corinne's estranged husband, who used his old military-issue rifle to commit the murder.
After that incident, the government ordered that ammunition for army weapons be left in arsenals, although the guns could still be kept at home.
"Switzerland, he points out, has fewer people with access to at least one weapon than the United States,"
Firearms per 100 people;
United States 101.5
Switzerland 24.45
Statistics show that Switzerland has among the higher gun death rates in Western Europe, but mass shootings are rare with two such incidents in the last 20 years. The country’s higher gun death rate can largely be attributed to suicide with guns, since the latest available statistics show a gun suicide rate of 2.74 per 100,000 people, only slightly below the overall gun death rate of 3.01.
The number of Swiss keeping their army-issue rifle or pistol after military service has dropped by three quarters in ten years.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/bearing-arms_how-gun-loving-switzerland-regulates-its-firearms/43573832
END QUOTE
Haggis
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Yet, despite this revelation, Florida House Speaker Richard Corcoran "also said the news about the resource officer's failure to respond did not dissuade him from moving ahead with what he was calling the "marshal" plan to let local law-enforcement officials train and deputize someone at the school who would be authorized to carry a gun."
McG
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So, your first article was written in 2013 and contains a lot of speculation itself. It does note annual suicides occurring at a rate of about 30,000 a year and that between 1998 and 2012 there were 45 suicides that were later learned to have been murder. 45 erroneous conclusions over 14 years (or about 420,000 suicides) is not going to affect any of the statistics looked at in this thread. The possibility that a more significant percentage of suicides were actually murders was entirely conjecture by the author. But, he also noted that Japan introduced more rigourous use of autopsies in 2012. It is now 2018. If the accusations are partially accurate, there should be someone who has made observations on a noticeable shift in statistics on murder vs suicide.Eaglelord17 said:
Your second article, from 2014, states “It is a undisputed fact that Japan has achieved a remarkable safe society compared to other industrialized countries ...”. Only in its final paragraph does it casually drop the idea that police may avoid reaching certain conclusions to manage crime statistics, but it cites a 2007 article focusing on a single incident (materially irrelevant to the discussion, but it is possible this 1 is amounts the 45 in your first article).
Collectively, it is more speculation and anecdote. There may be something there, but is it enough to dismiss the available numbers? If yes, there should be something more current to show this.
We spend a lot of time, effort and resources on training soldiers to be resilient and drilling them on weapons before each deployment into war, and we endeavour to continue that training through the operation. We know the mind functions subconsciously in was to preserve itself. We know people are biologically prone to freeze, fight or flight in ways over which they are not in control. If you put armed defenders into schools and do not specifically and routinely train them to take a pistol into a fight against an assault rifle, those defenders will routinely fail you when assault rifles are brought to hunt children.Larry Strong said:
Eaglelord17
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MCG said:
Who else would be writing on the topic? Japan doesn't have any interest in dashing the perception they are a peaceful crime free society. The police themselves have no interest as it would prove they haven't been doing there jobs. The Coroners have no interest as it could end up with them in some serious trouble. The only way to get some serious answers would be to have a unbiased (or at as unbiased as possible) third party start collecting the numbers, which Japan would not let happen. It is mostly speculation, but they have left us unable to get a 100% verified answer.
McG
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Who else? Could be the same people for all I care (they are obviously interested in the topic). But you don’t give strength to your argument when you dismiss current statistics based on 6 year old articles (one of which states that things were not all that bad and that steps had already then just been taken to ameliorate your concern, and both of which are speculative) while not presenting a more recent examination of how the trend has progressed since corrective steps were taken. I suppose it is a convenient way to avoid potentially inconvenient facts to just put your hands up and say your sure the information is not out there (and if you have not already tried looking it is potentially also a way to miss the facts that show merit to your position).
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