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The Great Gun Control Debate

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Journeyman said:
Interesting term, which you used twice.    :rofl:

"I'm afraid he's not just normal, but extremely  normal....."    :orly:

God help us when extreme becomes the new normal. "I think I will buy something from Cabella's to protect the family, because thats now normal in suburban Canada?"
 
We buy "EXTREEEEEEM!!!" energy drinks, "extreme" bicycles and rollerblades. We go to "extreme" movies and sporting events.  We should be extremely normal to use them.
 
By the way there are .458 cal. elephant gun versions of AR-10/AR-15; fortunately maximum magazine holds 10-rounds:

Big Kids on the Block: Rock River Arms’ LAR-458 vs. CMMG’s XBE

lar458_cmmgxbe.jpg

http://www.gunsandammo.com/rifles/big-kids-on-the-block-rock-river-arms-lar-458-vs-cmmgs-xbe/#ixzz589ikpLdf

Mark
Ottawa
 
I am in the camp of arming teachers that want to be armed. Start with the State CCW permit, add a holster and engagement course. Mostly classroom and a range qualification. Specify holster types, minimum level 2. Give them a bonus to cover costs.

Looking at the figures on line, there are 116,000 schools in the US, with roughly 180 days of schooling per year, that’s roughly 20,800,000 days of school per year that need covering. You won’t be able to provide outside coverage for all of that.

People with CCW permits have a low indictment rate, a low accident rate, even with the minimal or non-existent training currently required. Allowing teachers to be armed and concealed is part of a greater strategy, including hardening. It’s pretty clear in this case that the Sheriffs department failed miserably and that the other authorities who were given ample opportunity to intervene early on to help this kid also failed to pick up on it.

One option might be to require that anyone under the age of 21 requires parental consent and records check to acquire any semi-auto centrefire rifle.     
 
Altair said:
And to be clear,  canada has some work to do as well

DWDFRH5U8AAM7iF.jpg:large

No one knows for sure how many guns there are in Canada. I have seen references to study done that put legal guns manufactured, imported into Canada around 30 million. The best guess right now is that there are currently 17 million guns in circulation. Not counting smuggled guns, in which the Border services managed to seize 1300 guns out of 3% of cargo searched, meaning a theoretical possibility of up to 43,000 guns being smuggled in. (that's on the high side as likely that 3% searched were targeted on information, still gives you an idea of how many could possibly be coming in)
 
Colin P said:
I am in the camp of arming teachers that want to be armed. Start with the State CCW permit, add a holster and engagement course. Mostly classroom and a range qualification. Specify holster types, minimum level 2. Give them a bonus to cover costs.

Looking at the figures on line, there are 116,000 schools in the US, with roughly 180 days of schooling per year, that’s roughly 20,800,000 days of school per year that need covering. You won’t be able to provide outside coverage for all of that.

People with CCW permits have a low indictment rate, a low accident rate, even with the minimal or non-existent training currently required. Allowing teachers to be armed and concealed is part of a greater strategy, including hardening. It’s pretty clear in this case that the Sheriffs department failed miserably and that the other authorities who were given ample opportunity to intervene early on to help this kid also failed to pick up on it.

One option might be to require that anyone under the age of 21 requires parental consent and records check to acquire any semi-auto centrefire rifle.   

This strikes me as a reasonable approach. It provides some extra deterrent to anyone planning an attack, and costs far less than extra police or armed security.

This article is about a Florida sheriff already arming teachers as a measure to harden up the schools in his jurisdiction.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/us/florida-sheriff-on-arming-teachers-ok-einstein-you-got-a-better-idea/ar-BBJlvaW?li=AAggv0m
 
Brihard said:
So here's another one for you. I get dispatched to a school shooting as a cop. I'm one of the first few guys into the place. We hear shooting coming vaguely from a part of the school and we move that way. As we're moving down the south hallways on the main floor, Mr O'Grady, the late twenties teacher in the tech department who had no class that period, comes out of a doorway with his gun drawn also moving towards the sound of the shooting, with kids running down the hallway towards him and us. I move to the sound of shooting and in doing so I see an adult male emerge from a classroom with a gun up and kids in the immediate vicinity.

Worst case, police shoot and kill a teacher. Best case, the first contact team is now stuck in a high risk takedown because they saw a person with a gun, and now because they're dealing with that individual they lose several minutes of time where we could be stopping the *actual* threat, but we think we may be dealing with either the or another suspect.

Even if teachers were to become armed, they had better hunker down in a classroom covering kids. If they go armed into the hallways they are putting themselves at huge risk and hindering the police response because we will be unable in those critical few minutes to differentiate the teacher from the shooter.

Given that the training for the teachers is given by the police that will be responding immediately I would expect someone has though of a way of dealing with it. I'm sure whatever the solution they have devised is, it won't be made public to prevent it being copied/exploited.

You're obviously the expert here, but I think with professionals leading the training, and motivated and trained amateurs a workable solution could be achieved.
 
Lost in the noise is that a number of school districts having been allowing teachers to carry, one district had allowed it from 2010 and only recently told the parents, no one realized the teachers were armed.
 
What one can buy, non-restricted, in Canada--thank goodness for small magazine:

...
UNG.jpg


Details:
Introducing the UNG-12 Tactical Bullpup 12GA Shotgun!

The UNG-12 is a semi-auto gas-piston operated detachable magazine bullpup shotgun. It has a 12 Gauge 3” chamber with a 18.7” barrel. The bullpup configuration allows for a smaller overall length without a compromise in barrel length. This configuration results in a center/rear biased weight distribution, which reduces strain during long periods of use and increases transition speed in CQB and action shooting scenarios. The detachable magazine allows for easy and rapid reloading over conventional tube type systems. Magazine seating is straight insertion style, allowing for smooth and simplistic reloads.

It features a monolithic top picatinny rail, Recoil Reducer Stock, left and right QD Sling Mounting Points, and side and bottom picatinny rails. Includes ambidextrous: fire selector, magazine release, bolt release and safety lever. Upper receiver is constructed from aluminum while the lower is polymer. 4140 Steel Barrel with muzzle break and interchangeable chokes. Fast, no tools field stripping.

Comes with manual, one 5 round magazine and iron sights...
http://www.tacticalimports.ca/ung12-p-457.html

However much bigger mags available in US:

Four New Box-Magazine-Fed Shotguns
These semi-autos function much like their AR and AK rifle counterparts, with reload speeds to match...

stand12g_014-l_78372.1499866746.1280.1280_21631.1506525792.png

...
https://www.range365.com/four-new-box-magazine-fed-shotguns

Mark
Ottawa
 
NIJ Solicitation: Comprehensive School Safety Initiative 2018

This was not created directly as the result of any particular school shooting, but if academics, advocacy groups and other parties wish to contribute to the debate in a rational, objective way offering substantive, workable solutions- this is how it is done. Of course, nobody expects the NRA to apply for funding  :waiting:

https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/USDOJOJP/bulletins/1de349f

Office of Justice Programs sent this bulletin at 02/27/2018 01:58 PM EST

​New Solicitation: Comprehensive School Safety Initiative, Fiscal Year 2018

The Comprehensive School Safety Initiative (CSSI) funds rigorous research to produce practical knowledge that can improve the safety of students and schools. The CSSI is carried out through partnerships between researchers, educators, and other stakeholders; including law enforcement, behavioral and mental health professionals, courts, and other justice system professionals. Projects funded under the CSSI are designed to improve school safety knowledge that can be applied to schools and school districts across the nation, for years to come.

This solicitation includes five funding categories with different expectations and requirements to accomplish the purposes of the CSSI:

Category 1: Developing Novel and Innovative School Safety Programs, Practices, and Strategies
Category 2: Demonstration, Evaluation, and Validation Tests for School Safety
Category 3: Expanding the Use of Effective Interventions Through Scaling-Up
Category 4: Research on School Safety
Category 5: Translation and Dissemination of Comprehensive School Safety Initiative Findings

All applications are due by 11:59 p.m. Eastern Time on May 7, 2018.

edit: page 56 -forward of the attached document is a good read on Active Shooters Situations with this little gem:
" While talking to staff about confronting a shooter may be daunting and upsetting for some, they should know that they may be able to successfully take action to save lives. To be clear, confronting an active shooter should never be a requirement in any school employee’s job description; how each staff member chooses to respond if directly confronted by an active shooter is up to him or her. Further, the possibility of an active shooter situation is not justification for the presence of firearms on campus in the hands of any personnel other than law enforcement officers.
 

Attachments

Mag changes are pretty fast with even a little practice, it's likely more to do with our licensing process which is made slow and fairly pricey deliberately to eliminate interest in getting one. I held off on getting my license for years because of the requirement to find an instructor, do the paperwork, pay the fees, and then wait months to get the license in the mail. So of someone like me with a stable job, no criminal record, and a security clearance is hesitant to go through the process it stands to reason many of the "undesirables" won't bother with the process either.
 
I was asked a few posts back about what I meant by :"reasonable restrictions" on firearms ownership.
After a bit of digging, I found something interesting: the October 2008 decision by the US Supreme Court which struck down the District of Columbia's attempt to restrict firearms ownership. The case was known as "The District of Columbia VS Heller".

There is a summary of the case here:https://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0578.htm

Particularly interesting is that Justice Scalia (a well known conservative on the Bench), wrote the following for the majority:

Second Amendment rights are not absolute, according to Scalia. Thus, the amendment does not grant the “right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever for whatever purpose” (Heller., at 2816). Among “presumptively lawful” regulatory measures are laws that (1) prohibit carrying concealed weapons, (2) prohibit the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, (3) forbid the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or (2) impose conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. He adds that he could also find “support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons” (Id., at 2816, 2817). In a footnote, Scalia says the list of presumptively lawful measures “does not purport to be exhaustive.”

Despite the fact that Mr Trump apparently disagreed with item (2) when he struck down the restriction on sale of weapons to the mentally ill, and his alleged pandering to the NRA (his recent comments about "we might have to fight the NRA:" notwithstanding..) it does seem that there are approved grounds for states to enact legislation controlling the sale of firearms in a reasonable manner, and that, based on the last sentence,  they could go beyond what is listed.

 
MarkOttawa said:
What one can buy, non-restricted, in Canada--thank goodness for small magazine:

Nice shotgun but definitely stay away from Tacrical Imports when it's a pre-order.
Good rule of thumb is waiting for gen 2 or 3 of new firearms.






Pictures sums up what's going on in the US with the Florida shooting.

28277175_1983010475059763_4893250779638117792_n.jpg
 
Gun owners are portrayed as poor, uneducated, white, male, and Christian... Makes them easy scapegoats. No matter what argument they use they can be labeled as some "ist/ism", or at the very least just too dumb to know what's good for them. That's why we need credentialed people to tell us what to do and how to do it, common sense and thousands of years of experience be damned. 
 
FJAG said:

"Donohue told ABC News that the research “concluded that allowing citizens to carry handguns seems to increase violent crime 13 to 15 percent by the 10th year” of the laws being enacted in the state."

Yet, despite (or because of) a vast increase in the number of privately-owned firearms, especially during the Obama years, the US homicide rate is at a multi-decade low, save for a spike in the last couple of years (look up "Ferguson Effect", the most likely cause). That is not disputable, no matter what studies to the contrary may attempt to "prove".

It is the large cities, and, in particular, certain neighbourhoods within them, that are seeing the largest increases. Those cities skew both state and national rates, as their rates are often many times the state and national rates. Many of those cities have extremely restrictive firearms laws, which serve only to encourage and protect violent criminals.

"Another takeaway from the NBER report is that the presence of the gun could turn a would-be good guy into an intentional or unintentional bad guy.

"Donohue and his co-authors cited the infamous 2012 case of George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who got into a deadly confrontation with teenager Trayvon Martin."

"“Presumably, George Zimmerman would not have hassled Trayvon Martin if Zimmerman had not had a gun, so the gun encouraged a hostile confrontation, regardless of who ultimately becomes violent,” the report stated."

Mr Zimmerman, a crime watch volunteer, was following a suspiciously-acting hoodie-wearing person in an area that had seen many break-ins and reporting his observations to the police when he was attacked. I have seen no indication that his being armed was a factor in his actions prior to being attacked, or that he was "hassling" Martin. Being armed may, however, have saved his life, as Martin was on top of him, pummelling him, and slamming his head into the ground when he was shot. Florida's "stand-your-ground" law was not invoked in Mr Zimmerman's defence despite it's controversy at the time as, with Martin on top of him, he had no ability to retreat even if he wanted to.

"Gold pointed to the Dickey Amendment as the clearest example of such obstruction. The federal government in 1996 banned the use of any funds from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention from being "used to advocate or promote gun control." The NRA was widely reported to have lobbied for the inclusion of the amendment, written by then-Rep. Jay Dickey, R-Ark., in that year's omnibus spending bill."

Aside from the fact that Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are no more qualified to properly conduct research into criminal matters than criminologists are to conduct research into plagues and epidemics, CDC was using sketchy research to advocate for gun control measures. Political advocacy was not in their mandate, and barring them from spending public funds outside of their mandate was the right and sensible thing to do.

"The FBI has also compiled some of its own numbers breaking down what role "good guys" have played in active shooter incidents. In a 2014 report, the FBI examined 160 active shooter incidents that took place between 2000 and 2013.

"The report found that in five of those incidents, armed individuals who were not members of law enforcement exchanged gunfire with the shooter, leading to either the shooter being killed, wounded or taking his own life.

"By contrast, 21 of the 160 incidents ended after unarmed citizens “safely and successfully restrained the shooter,” the report stated.

"“Most of the time, if you’re talking about a civilian stopping a mass shooter, it’s the unarmed guy without the gun because they're right there,” Donohue said."

No surprise, given the relatively small number of people actually carrying lawfully. Any unarmed person tackling or otherwise confronting a mass-murderer is either extremely brave or extremely desperate, and anybody getting away with it is extremely lucky - and likely wishing that they were armed at the time. Interestingly, the survival rate for those people was not given.

"There is a growing number of mass shooting incidents that occurred after the release of the FBI’s 2014 report where a so-called good guy with a gun was on the scene but did not stop the shooting or shooter.

"The most recent example is the armed school resource officer at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School who did not enter the building or engage the shooter. Fourteen students and three adult staffers were gunned down."

More than simply being "on the scene", ie remaining safely outside in this case, is required. One has to be active rather than passive. Somebody more "on the scene", like the coach who shielded students at the cost of his own life, might have been able to save himself and some others had he been armed.
Information is still coming out about that particular deputy's actions, and the reason for them.

"Five people were killed at the January 2017 shooting in the baggage claim portion of the Fort Lauderdale airport, where there are regularly armed police officers."

As I have said before, several times, uniformed police and security personnel are easily identified and avoided. This is where concealed carry has the advantage.

"Las Vegas casinos are known to have regularly armed police officers and there were off-duty law enforcement officers at the Route 91 Harvest Festival but the shooter who fired at the concertgoers was able to fire shots for roughly 10 minutes before the shooter’s room was breached by police officers."

This was an entirely unique situation, for many reasons. "On the scene", in this case some distance from the murderer and on the other side of walls, is not the same as a mass-murderer killing people at very close range where somebody carrying concealed may be close enough to engage and neutralize. And I do not believe that this particular murderer's room was breached within ten minutes as claimed.

"In November 2017, a so-called "good guy" did respond to the shooting that unfolded at a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, but not until after the suspect had left the scene and already killed 26 people inside the church."

The was engaged and shot by Stephen Willeford, and dropped his rifle before driving of at high speed. Mr Willeford jumped into Johnnie Langendorff's truck, and the two pursued him until he went off of the road and crashed. Mr Langendorff was in communication with the police during the pursuit, and the police arrived soon after it was over.

Had those two not pursued and reported, the police - who arrived well after both parties had left - would not have had a clue where the attacker went, or his status.

Had the murderer not been thus stopped, he may well have moved on to commit more murder elsewhere.

As for arming teachers, doing so creates the last line in a layered defence. After the attacker remains undetected or is ignored prior to his attack, successfully gets into the school (not hard for a student to do), and avoids any formal security that may or may not be present, who is left between students and attacker? Who are the only ones likely to have any positive effect in the few long, long minutes between the start of the attack and the arrival of police, who still have to get inside and locate the killer?

The teacher does not have to be a brilliant marksman or tactician. Even if the attacker is not quickly neutralized, the distraction provided can allow others to get away.

And, not to be discounted, is the deterrence value of having armed people inside the school, with a potential attacker not knowing who is, or even how many are, armed, and where the armed people are - a similar advantage that submarines have.

This is a first-aid solution. A two-day course and a small packet of bandages does not turn a person into a trauma surgeon, and a home fire extinguisher does not turn a homeowner into a professional firefighter, nor does a smoke detector guarantee that everybody will get out of a house or apartment alive. Sometimes, though, they give enough of an edge - buying precious minutes - until the pros arrive and take over.

There are already many teachers with concealed-carry permits. Like many other permit-holders, they often spend much more time on ranges than the average policeman/policewoman. They also know their schools and students much better, and are much closer to the site of the killing when it starts. They may also have thought through many possible scenarios and mentally rehearsed their actions over many years. They not only have the survival of their students to motivate them, but their own survival as well. That is a significant advantage.

Some jurisdictions permit them to carry in schools, most do not, but more are going that way.
 
Brihard said:
I continue to quite enjoy Neil MacDonald's opinion pieces. HE's somewhat left of me politically on some stuff, but he does a pretty good job of calling stuff as it is regarding our neighbours to the south.

Starting right off with "Marjory Stoneman Douglas students are battering an insuperable wall of legal and political iron", he's out to lunch. He left out "facts and reality" as their major obstacles.

Being shot at, or worrying about being shot at, does not make one an expert on firearms and mass-murderers.

"The Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution states the following: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

"That sentence was ratified in 1791, a time of flintlocks, and liberals have argued it cannot possibly translate into allowing the citizens of a largely urban America to lug around high-efficiency military killing instruments in 2018."

It did not specify flintlocks, which were the "high-efficiency military killing instruments" of their day, any more than the First Amendment specified direct speech and quill pens on parchment. The intent was weapons comparable to military ones in general.

Mr MacDonald would certainly howl if anyone were to deprive him of his computer, internet, and cellphone to bring him in line with what was known in 1792.

Hypocrite.

"In the 2008 Heller decision, the court swept away the District of Columbia's efforts to regulate rifles and shotguns and ban the possession of handguns in private homes. It ruled that the Second Amendment literally confers the right to carry a weapon. Period."

Utter BS. It did no such thing, and Washington continues to enforce unfair restrictions upon its honest citizens while ignoring those who maintain its high murder rate. Some restrictions have eased, but not much. Heller did cause a drop in the murder rate, though, at least initially.

The embedded link to "Why the ACLU supported Trump when he scrapped rule limiting guns for mentally ill" http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/donald-trump-gun-mentally-ill-rule-1.4538963 is a bit better, and should be read. As we all know, there are different types and degrees of mental illness, and far from all sufferers of mental illness are any more dangerous than "normal" people.

"Obama's regulation would also have required the Social Security Administration to send the names of some people unable to manage their disability benefits because of mental impairments to the criminal background check system database.

"Those people, estimated to number around 75,000, could have been prevented from owning or purchasing a firearm and may have been forced to prove why they were competent enough to do so, opponents of the regulation argued."

I have yet to see a mass-murderer linked to "unable to manage their disability benefits".

"Thousands of Americans whose disability benefits are managed by someone else range from young people with depression and financial inexperience to older adults with Down syndrome needing help with a limited budget, the ACLU wrote."

Yes, Mr MacDonald should well fear all of those people with Down Syndrome. After all, they commit what huge percentage of homicides, again?

"It is unlawful to sell a firearm to a person who "has been adjudicated as a mental defective" or "has been committed to any mental institution."

Yes indeed. Due process has to be followed before depriving citizens of their rights. Would anybody wish it otherwise? Besides Mr MacDonald?

He is wilfully ignorant, and a bigot.
 
So rather than refute the statement simply posting the sponsor is enough? I suppose that makes the Radio Chatter Global Warming thread obsolete... everything in it is published by one side or the other.

Sheriff's deputies hid, the FBI didn't investigate, the Sheriff's department didn't follow up... but somehow it's the AR-15's, and every law abiding gun owners fault that a known wackjob had several minutes of free time to kill after he was known to be shooting kids?

I get that the American right can be wack jobs, but can we step back and look at the fact that LE didn't intervene at several key points up to and including the shooting? They have a responsibility in this that is being pushed aside to go after guns. People are scared of guns, I get it... but how much is based on a real probability of getting shot, and how much is based on the Hollywood version of guns. I bet if Hollywood showed a more realistic view of stabbing far more people would be scared of their own kitchen drawers.   
 
If I was a law enforcement officer about to enter a school with an active shooter, I would prefer the teachers and staff to be unarmed.

You cannot predict what average, poorly trained people will do with firearms in panic situations.

More guns for average people = less trust and more unpredictability

That goes for society as a whole too.
 
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