The Great Gun Control Debate

[Niteshade]

I respect your opinion, however different than mine and others like mine.  What I would like to ask is that you explain why you think that, not just that you think it.  Why do you think it would not have saved this person's life?

Good question.

From what I have read in the news articles, there is mention that the passengers were alerted to the problem by a scream, as the victim is stabbed by a butchers/rambo knife 40 to 50 times in the neck in a very short period of time. Well, regardless if the assailant is shot or not, the victim still has multiple stab wounds to the neck. This is extremely life threatening. I am not sure about the police response time, but from what it appears it was some time as they had to bar the man inside the bus to prevent his escape. An assumption, but it would be reasonable to assume an ambulance would take about the same time to arrive at the scene.
To sum up, I believe that it would be reasonable that the survivability of a person who incurs multiple neck injuries without prompt paramedic attention is quite low. This is assuming someone on the bus would perform first aid on the injured man prior to his bleeding out.

There is multiple factors at play here, not just if CCW is legal and would have helped, but the injuries incurred before the assailant is theoretically shot/killed, and the availability to medical attention to repair those injuries.

The mental component?
The gnawing "He wouldn't have done it had he knew there was someone on the bus with a gun - but didn't know who". Interesting argument based entirely on theoretical, but let's address it. What we do know for certain is this guy just popped and started stabbing furiously. This is with absolute disregard to the other 30-odd people on the bus. It is reasonable to assume he simply is not wired right. I would argue that it is reasonable to assume that should someone on the bus had a gun, and this guy knew of it, that he would have still cut anyway. He just isnt wired right. It's an assumption, but so is the alternative. One could assume that he would not have stabbed knowing somone on the bus would have a gun. This is assuming he was of normal mental capacity. But he isnt, so I think my argument is better.

Hope this sheds some insight on my logic.

Nites

Nites

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I don't think the victim could have been saved either. Fortunately, the attacker was fixated or there could have been a lot more damage.

Unfortunately, people shouldn't have to wait til a passing trucker hands out wrenches before they have the minimum tools required to afford themselves, and others, a modicum of protection.

 

[Niteshade]

You may want to rethink that statement.

Having read your article, I stand corrected.

We need CCW laws.

I still stand by my statement that I think that CCW would not have saved the bus-passenger's life though. Would have stopped the decapitation.

I am admittedly on the fence about CCW and gun registrations. I agree that gun registration is good. We should know who owns what type of weapon. I do however believe hand guns and automatic rifles should be made more available. CCW? Well that article sums it up. Criminals don't apply/register/purchase/carry guns legally, so at the very least law abiding people should be able to do the same, that is, to carry handguns etc. for their personal protection.

On the flip side, the gun registration system is FAR too late. Too many handguns and rifles are rolling around the country with the owners not intending at all to register them.

Nites

 

[COBRA-6]

Unfortunately, people shouldn't have to wait til a passing trucker hands out wrenches before they have the minimum tools required to afford themselves, and others, a modicum of protection.

This is exactly the point of the CCW argument; not to war game the specifics of an individual incident, but to address the tragic reality that Canadians are denied the tools necessary for self-defence. Not only firearms mind you, the Government has outlawed the possession of pretty much any tool of self-defence, even non/less-lethal ones such as mace, pepper spray, stun-guns, collapsible batons, etc. All done under the argument that criminals will misuse the items for evil purposes; which is absurd of course because criminals will get their hands on the items anyways, so these laws only impact on the law-abiding.  

The state that doesn't trust its citizens with weapons, ultimately doesn't trust its citizens.

 

[Dissident]

On the flip side, the gun registration system is FAR too late. Too many handguns and rifles are rolling around the country with the owners not intending at all to register them.

Again, you are misinformed: Handguns have had to be registered by the owner since 1934.

 

[2 Cdo]

Again, you are misinformed: Handguns have had to be registered by the owner since 1934.

I love when someone shoots down their own argument with uninformed drivel! 8)

 

[Sheerin]

You may want to rethink that statement.

http://www.ccrkba.org/pub/rkba/press-releases/cc_cn_crime_rate_double_us.htm

Just looking at the stats one thing pops out at me, for the stats listed each country (Canada vs US) has their own description of what it is.  We group rape in with sexual assault, whereas the US doesn't, same goes for general assault so that's definitely going to skew the numbers.
Though one thing that pops out is the homicide rate is greater than 3 times higher in the US than Canada.  
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/legal02.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_01.html

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Just looking at the stats one thing pops out at me, for the stats listed each country (Canada vs US) has their own description of what it is.  We group rape in with sexual assault, whereas the US doesn't, same goes for general assault so that's definitely going to skew the numbers.
Though one thing that pops out is the homicide rate is greater than 3 times higher in the US than Canada.  
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/legal02.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_01.html

Don't they also have a larger population to go along with that??

 

[COBRA-6]

On the flip side, the gun registration system is FAR too late. Too many handguns and rifles are rolling around the country with the owners not intending at all to register them.

Handguns have been registered in Canada since the 30's, IIRC. We would be better served to spend all the time, manpower and money wasted on registration on focus on improving the licencing process. The removal of the face-to-face police interview portion under the old FAC was a big mistake, as it is one of the best ways to prevent unbalanced individuals from legally acquiring firearms, i.e. Kimveer Gill.  

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This is exactly the point of the CCW argument; not to war game the specifics of an individual incident, but to address the tragic reality that Canadians are denied the tools necessary for self-defence. Not only firearms mind you, the Government has outlawed the possession of pretty much any tool of self-defence, even non/less-lethal ones such as mace, pepper spray, stun-guns, collapsible batons, etc. All done under the argument that criminals will misuse the items for evil purposes; which is absurd of course because criminals will get their hands on the items anyways, so these laws only impact on the law-abiding.  

The state that doesn't trust its citizens with weapons, ultimately doesn't trust its citizens.

Yup, and here's the idiocy of our archaic and knee jerk liberal feel good laws. You may own a baton, or asp, or bear spray legally. You MAY NOT purchase it for self defence. You MAY NOT carry it for self defence. You MAY carry it for decoration, or angry animals, in which case you MAY use it for self defence as a tool of convenience if attacked by a scumbag. BUT you CANNOT purchase and carry it for the express purpose of self defence against a human, you'll be breaking the law.

Tell me this bullshit wasn't thought out with the same sort of gray goo that inhabits the brain bucket of guys like Miller of Moronto or Allan (thick as a) Rock?

On the flip side, the gun registration system is FAR too late. Too many handguns and rifles are rolling around the country with the owners not intending at all to register them.

Nites

Oh and speaking of Rock, I think I posted it some time back, but the father of the registry has admitted in public it was a bad idea and it doesn't work. Going on $3 billion cost on a bad hunch, ruining the lives of legal citizens across the country.  Quite a legacy. Now he's (as of this month) become Allan Rock, the University of Ottawa’s 29th President and Vice-Chancellor. More liberal fantasy to infect the youth of academia.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Here's a link to an eyewitnesses account of the incident:

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?rn=222561&cl=9064519&ch=222562

Might be a bit more wary when I sleep on public transportation from now on 

As for CCW, the one thing that would concern me with an armed population is the ones who wouldn't shoot.  Not everyone has the stones to put a bullet into someone, and if a bad guy walks up and takes the weapon out of shaky hands of the person pointing and not shooting, guess who gets to deal with the now firearm enabled person?  My chums and I. 
And I think if someone could have punched a shot out at the arsehole, buddy the passenger would have had a much better chance.  Even if shitbag was only distracted and realized that his big huzzah was coming to an early end.  And who's to say the passenger was already fatally wounded?  People can survive all sorts of trauma and come through.  Plus, a dead shit head is always a good outcome. 
Almost guaranteed this guy was MHA, but he probably knew bloody well that the police wouldn't shoot him if he was unarmed.  He gets the big media splash and attention that he probably was looking for (and you know they will oblige at first opportunity) and thus another gomer gets a big idea. 

 

[muskrat89]

On a slightly related note, I will be taking my CCW class next month. I'll be posting a review and photos on my blog after I am done. The class content is listed on my site:
http://arizonahuntingtoday.com/desertrat/2008/07/30/taking-a-ccw-class/

 

[Infanteer]

Well, I'm sure with this slaying on the Greyhound in Manitoba the gun control advocates will be all up for banning handguns completely, restricting licences and not permitting long guns to leave a person's house.  This random act of violence is once again proof that we need to get guns off the street to prevent criminals from having access to them so they can perpetuate their acts of wanton violence.....wait a minute..... :

 

[Jacqueline]

I agree, and people also need to be super careful about the messages they send to other people(who knows why he did it). But if everyone had a gun, then everyone would be equally safe and protected.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Just looking at the stats for Washington DC vs Texas for 2005, 1 in 66 people being a victim of violent crime in DC for 2005 vs 1 in 193 for Texas, you are also 4.9 times more likely to be murdered in DC than Texas! DC has some of the most stringant gun laws in the country, Texas has some of the least. Also criminal charges involving firearms against CCW holders equaled around 1% half of which seem to be carrying in the wrong place, a very easy mistake to make.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Two sides of the coin:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/...html?id=696422

National Post
Published: Saturday, August 02, 2008

Our society has spent a fortune on security, yet clearly, we will have to spend a good deal more. However, the essence of such explosive acts of rage is how unpredictably they occur. Those among us who campaign to eliminate deadly weapons from society are engaged in damage control. The murderer on this bus clearly demonstrated the readiness to kill every passenger on board. Armed with just the right weapon, say, a rapid-fire handgun and an ammo clip, he could have shed even more blood in this deadly episode of psychotic rage.

Ron Charach, Toronto.

              -or-

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/...html?id=696415

or the right to self-defence

National Post
Published: Saturday, August 02, 2008

Re: Horror On Route 1628, Aug. 1.

The idea of a deranged individual running amok on a bus and murdering innocent passengers in their sleep is the stuff of nightmares. Yet far worse is the spectre of a police state where government intrusion into all aspects of our lives would reduce such incidents to a minimum, though still such tragedies would still occur.

We must recognize that the Charter right to personal safety cannot be guaranteed by the state, but in exchange, the state must provide us the means to fend for ourselves in the absence of its agents. Had only a single individual on that bus been allowed to carry a firearm, a young man might have concluded his journey safely.

Robert S. Sciuk, Oshawa, Ont.

What Mr Ron Charach of Moronto, and his hoplophobe ilk, fail to, or REFUSE, to understand and fathom is that most gun related rampages are committed by societal dregs that have studied where and when they are going to do it. Invariably, they chose areas that are, for the most part, unsecure with little or no police (read armed) presence. They also chose areas, such as schools or shopping malls and restaurants filled with students or mom and kid shoppers. These areas are often 'gun free zones' which dissallow the carry of firearms by the general populace. The targets are chosen because they usally panic and cower in fear instead of taking action and meeting force with force. One of the most oft heard phrases attributed to survivors after one of these melees is "If I or someone else had just had a gun".
__________________

 

[Retired AF Guy]

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/...html?id=696422

National Post
Published: Saturday, August 02, 2008

Our society has spent a fortune on security, yet clearly, we will have to spend a good deal more. However, the essence of such explosive acts of rage is how unpredictably they occur. Those among us who campaign to eliminate deadly weapons from society are engaged in damage control. The murderer on this bus clearly demonstrated the readiness to kill every passenger on board. Armed with just the right weapon, say, a rapid-fire handgun and an ammo clip, he could have shed even more blood in this deadly episode of psychotic rage.

Ron Charach, Toronto.

Mr. Charach doesn't know what he is talking about. If this individual had instead walked down the bus aisle slashing left and right as he went, there would have been a hell of a lot more injuries/deaths than just one. Or he could have slit the throat of his first victim, moved to the next seat, did the same thing and proceeded to the next victim(s). Again, resulting in multiple victims. Alternately, he could have hidden bomb in his carry-on baggage and blown the bus and everyone in it to high heaven.

The reality is that if someone is determined to kill you they will figure out a way to do it, no matter how many laws you put into effect. The problem with people like Mr Charach is that in their zeal make the world safer, by disarming the individual from defending themselves, have accomplished the opposite.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

  The problem is we have people who don't follow and abide by laws put forth to guide society, and thus when they over step the bounds and wander into the lands of unlawfull deeds, the rest of those who abide are bound by limits and statues that we expect EVERYONE to stay within, and thus we handcuff ourselves and not the poeple who care little about laws or other people around them.

To fix this problem you have to take into consideration the VICTIMS, and by that i mean thier rights should supercede the rights of anyone who commits a crime. Therefore the criminal no longer has the upper hand by not only breaking the laws but then getting access to basic rights and freedoms that "regular folk" have. Once the criminals start taking a backseat to the victims will the system start to correct itself when dealing with people who don't think they are part of it, nor held accountable to it.

Let the changes begin, and the first should be the re-instatement of capital punishment by public hanging or firing squad. Let the punishments start equalling the crimes.

Cheers.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Here is an interesting U.S. website that posts articles of citizens defending themselves with firearms. It also posts various commentaries on fieramrs laws in the U.S.

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/

 

[a_majoor]

Of course, Mr Charach fails to see the possibility that an unarmed madman could walk to the front of the bus and grab the wheel oout of the driver's hand, potentially causing a traffic accident that could kill not only the people on the bus, but claim other victims as well (especially if there is a multi vehicle pile up). Of course Toronto has banned shooting clubs in order to reduce gun crime; look how well that worked.

It is time to stop blaming the tools and look at the people who weild the tools. The attacker was apparently known to have mental health issues, yet no one said or did anything about it. The closure and emptying of long term psyciatric hospitals in the 1980's left sick and vulnerable people on the street, and closed the avenues of help to individuals like the attacker, who might have been under medical supervision in such a facility if they still existed....