The Great Gun Control Debate
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I got a kick out of this article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080806/ap_on_re_us/nra_mole
Gun-control groups fear top activist was NRA spy
PHILADELPHIA - A gun-control activist who championed the cause for more than a decade and served on the boards of two anti-violence groups is suspected of working as a paid spy for the National Rifle Association, and now those organizations are expelling her and sweeping their offices for bugs.
The suggestion that Mary Lou McFate was a double agent is contained in a deposition filed as part of a contract dispute involving a security firm. The muckraking magazine Mother Jones, in a story last week, was the first to report on McFate's alleged dual identity.
The NRA refused to comment to the magazine and did not respond to calls Tuesday from The Associated Press. Nor did McFate.
The 62-year-old former flight attendant and sex counselor from Sarasota, Fla., is not new to the world of informants.
She infiltrated an animal-rights group in the late 1980s at the request of U.S. Surgical, and befriended an activist who was later convicted in a pipe bomb attack against the medical-supply business, U.S. Surgical acknowledged in news reports at the time. U.S. Surgical had come under fire for using dogs for research and training.
McFate resurfaced in Pennsylvania and has since spent years as an unpaid board member of CeaseFirePA and an organization called States United to Prevent Gun Violence. She also twice pushed unsuccessfully to join the board of the nation's largest gun-control group, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.
"It raises some real concerns with the tactics of the NRA. If they've got one person, maybe they have more. If they've done this dirty trick, what else have they done?" said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign, which planned to search its offices for listening devices and computer spyware.
The Brady Campaign and other groups said they are also researching whether McFate's alleged spying constituted a crime.
"Under some circumstances, it could be trespass," said Laurie Levenson, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles and a former prosecutor. But "if they're open meetings, it may be underhanded and sneaky; it may not be illegal."
At States United, McFate served as federal legislation director, meeting with members of Congress on Capitol Hill and writing letters. Over the years, she also stuffed envelopes, attended rallies and took part in conference calls and strategy sessions.
In retrospect, Helmke said, he now realizes McFate stopped by the Washington office for meetings and conference calls that could have been handled by phone, and perhaps pushed too hard to join the board or lobby Congress.
But as for any secrets she might have been privy to, the gun-control groups said they have little to hide, since they put their message and information about their budgets on the Web.
The allegations against McFate stem from a lawsuit brought against officials with Beckett Brown International, a now-defunct security firm based in Maryland. A former beer distributor who bankrolled the firm accused them of defrauding him.
Boxes of documents filed in the dispute reveal that McFate worked as a subcontractor for Beckett Brown and that the firm's clients included the NRA. And they show that McFate billed the firm for unspecified intelligence-gathering services, submitting among other things a request for a $4,500-a-month retainer in 1999.
The documents also reveal that McFate — that is her maiden name; her married name is Mary Lou Sapone — tried to get daughter-in-law Montgomery Sapone hired by Beckett Brown. Montgomery Sapone worked as an intern at Brady Campaign headquarters in 2003, the gun-control group said.
John Dodd III, the Maryland beer distributor who bankrolled Beckett Brown, told the AP that he did not condone the infiltration of activist groups.
Bryan Miller, executive director of Ceasefire NJ, said he feels betrayed by McFate. Miller's brother, an FBI agent, was shot to death in 1994.
"To have somebody that I consider a friend, have been with dozens of times, shared meals with, treated as a friend, to have her be an employee, a subcontracted spy for the NRA, is just mind-boggling. It's so venal," Miller said. "In the battle of ideas with the gun lobby, we're at a constant disadvantage because we're honest."
Timothy Ward, a former Beckett Brown principal who said in a sworn statement that McFate worked for the firm, declined comment Tuesday through a person who answered the phone at his new company, Chesapeake Strategies Group. The NRA now uses that firm for intelligence-gathering, another Chesapeake official said in a deposition.
The CeaseFirePA leadership plans a vote Friday on whether to expel McFate, a board member for seven years.
"I feel flattered that the NRA would feel that they would have to infiltrate Ceasefire of PA. Obviously, they're hearing our footsteps," said Phil Goldsmith, the group's president. "Frankly, I think it's a waste of their money. We don't deal in state secrets."
Those sneaky gun nuts! ;D
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080806/ap_on_re_us/nra_mole
Gun-control groups fear top activist was NRA spy
PHILADELPHIA - A gun-control activist who championed the cause for more than a decade and served on the boards of two anti-violence groups is suspected of working as a paid spy for the National Rifle Association, and now those organizations are expelling her and sweeping their offices for bugs.
The suggestion that Mary Lou McFate was a double agent is contained in a deposition filed as part of a contract dispute involving a security firm. The muckraking magazine Mother Jones, in a story last week, was the first to report on McFate's alleged dual identity.
The NRA refused to comment to the magazine and did not respond to calls Tuesday from The Associated Press. Nor did McFate.
The 62-year-old former flight attendant and sex counselor from Sarasota, Fla., is not new to the world of informants.
She infiltrated an animal-rights group in the late 1980s at the request of U.S. Surgical, and befriended an activist who was later convicted in a pipe bomb attack against the medical-supply business, U.S. Surgical acknowledged in news reports at the time. U.S. Surgical had come under fire for using dogs for research and training.
McFate resurfaced in Pennsylvania and has since spent years as an unpaid board member of CeaseFirePA and an organization called States United to Prevent Gun Violence. She also twice pushed unsuccessfully to join the board of the nation's largest gun-control group, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.
"It raises some real concerns with the tactics of the NRA. If they've got one person, maybe they have more. If they've done this dirty trick, what else have they done?" said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign, which planned to search its offices for listening devices and computer spyware.
The Brady Campaign and other groups said they are also researching whether McFate's alleged spying constituted a crime.
"Under some circumstances, it could be trespass," said Laurie Levenson, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles and a former prosecutor. But "if they're open meetings, it may be underhanded and sneaky; it may not be illegal."
At States United, McFate served as federal legislation director, meeting with members of Congress on Capitol Hill and writing letters. Over the years, she also stuffed envelopes, attended rallies and took part in conference calls and strategy sessions.
In retrospect, Helmke said, he now realizes McFate stopped by the Washington office for meetings and conference calls that could have been handled by phone, and perhaps pushed too hard to join the board or lobby Congress.
But as for any secrets she might have been privy to, the gun-control groups said they have little to hide, since they put their message and information about their budgets on the Web.
The allegations against McFate stem from a lawsuit brought against officials with Beckett Brown International, a now-defunct security firm based in Maryland. A former beer distributor who bankrolled the firm accused them of defrauding him.
Boxes of documents filed in the dispute reveal that McFate worked as a subcontractor for Beckett Brown and that the firm's clients included the NRA. And they show that McFate billed the firm for unspecified intelligence-gathering services, submitting among other things a request for a $4,500-a-month retainer in 1999.
The documents also reveal that McFate — that is her maiden name; her married name is Mary Lou Sapone — tried to get daughter-in-law Montgomery Sapone hired by Beckett Brown. Montgomery Sapone worked as an intern at Brady Campaign headquarters in 2003, the gun-control group said.
John Dodd III, the Maryland beer distributor who bankrolled Beckett Brown, told the AP that he did not condone the infiltration of activist groups.
Bryan Miller, executive director of Ceasefire NJ, said he feels betrayed by McFate. Miller's brother, an FBI agent, was shot to death in 1994.
"To have somebody that I consider a friend, have been with dozens of times, shared meals with, treated as a friend, to have her be an employee, a subcontracted spy for the NRA, is just mind-boggling. It's so venal," Miller said. "In the battle of ideas with the gun lobby, we're at a constant disadvantage because we're honest."
Timothy Ward, a former Beckett Brown principal who said in a sworn statement that McFate worked for the firm, declined comment Tuesday through a person who answered the phone at his new company, Chesapeake Strategies Group. The NRA now uses that firm for intelligence-gathering, another Chesapeake official said in a deposition.
The CeaseFirePA leadership plans a vote Friday on whether to expel McFate, a board member for seven years.
"I feel flattered that the NRA would feel that they would have to infiltrate Ceasefire of PA. Obviously, they're hearing our footsteps," said Phil Goldsmith, the group's president. "Frankly, I think it's a waste of their money. We don't deal in state secrets."
Those sneaky gun nuts! ;D
Colin Parkinson
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Terrible when the other side is as sneak as you are, it's just not fair!!!!! :crybaby:
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Gosh darn. I'll have to send a stern letter when I renew. 
Brad Sallows
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I urge the "progressive" folk among us to harmonize their messages. Example:
Message #1: *sniff of condescension* You conservatives are such alarmists about crime. Every educated and reasonable person knows crime rates in Canada are on the decline.
Message #2: A crime was committed, and a firearm was involved (or could have been). Raise the alarm!
Message #1: *sniff of condescension* You conservatives are such alarmists about crime. Every educated and reasonable person knows crime rates in Canada are on the decline.
Message #2: A crime was committed, and a firearm was involved (or could have been). Raise the alarm!
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Brad Sallows said:
I seem to remember a quote by the Liberal party not too long ago on the subject of getting tough on crime;
The person speaking seemed think that if they got tough on crime then they'd have to spend more money on building prisons...
Not to go all political and stuff but...isn't that the idea? :brickwall:
The Libs, not having learned anything from the last election, want to ban handguns outright...instead of coming up with real solutions to modern problems.
Retired AF Guy
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I know everyone is in a serious debate about gun control and all that, but I just stumbled upon this little video* and I thought I would share it with you folks. Something on the lighter side courtesy of that Great Canadian TM, William Shatner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7ElnDCorSo
* My apologies if its been posted before, but its the first time I saw it and couldn't resist posting it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7ElnDCorSo
* My apologies if its been posted before, but its the first time I saw it and couldn't resist posting it.
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
I now turn your attention to the Criminal Union who has set out this video in support of stricter gun control policies. Who said Criminals had no morals?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EXTZEcomqM&eurl=http://www.multicamaddict.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=968
Enjoy.
I now turn your attention to the Criminal Union who has set out this video in support of stricter gun control policies. Who said Criminals had no morals?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EXTZEcomqM&eurl=http://www.multicamaddict.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=968
Enjoy.
OldSolduer
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MedTech said:
That is good...had a good chuckle here.
For or Against gun Control, that is a difficult question. I believe in responsible gun ownership. I do not believe anyone requires a handgun in their home unless their job has a requirement for one to be issued. I believe in people hunting to put meat in their freezer not just antlers on the wall. I also believe that if the criminals are armed we have a right and a responsibility to defend ourselves and our homes.
Do I think stricter rules to get a permit to get a gun is warranted... with the decline of societal morality and a generation of kids that seem to be more and more immune to violence perhaps its warranted. Do I think gun controll is enforcable... I do not
So ergo if gun controll is Not enforcable why are we spending millions of dollars on it.
Do I think stricter rules to get a permit to get a gun is warranted... with the decline of societal morality and a generation of kids that seem to be more and more immune to violence perhaps its warranted. Do I think gun controll is enforcable... I do not
So ergo if gun controll is Not enforcable why are we spending millions of dollars on it.
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Whether I require a handgun or not is not for the government to decide. There are lots of things I don't require, but I get them anyhow. I own handguns because I participate in a number of shooting sports recreationally. As for hunting, it's not legal to hunt just to put antlers on the wall, you have to take the meat - if you don't want it there are plenty of organizations that will take is as a donation.
Gun control as we have it in Canada doesn't really work because the supply of guns to criminals is not controlled, they generally come from outside the legitimate supply in the first place. I agree that there should be rigourous, effective screening programs for those wanting to buy firearms, mandated safety training, etc, but we had that before the registry. In fact, in the "old days" you had to actually go for a face-to-face interview with a cop in order to get a handgun permit. Now it's all done by mail.
Gun control as we have it in Canada doesn't really work because the supply of guns to criminals is not controlled, they generally come from outside the legitimate supply in the first place. I agree that there should be rigourous, effective screening programs for those wanting to buy firearms, mandated safety training, etc, but we had that before the registry. In fact, in the "old days" you had to actually go for a face-to-face interview with a cop in order to get a handgun permit. Now it's all done by mail.
Siovan said:
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Siovan said:
Sir/Ma'am (yes, yet another BLANK profile),
Being polite, before you comment about the legalised theft of guns from law abiding citizens (ie your hand gun comment), do you know, and are you familiar with the already strict and tight gun laws we as Canadians already have, not only for handgun control, but long arms as well??
Obviously by your lack of knowledge on the subject matter, you do not own a firearm, or have a firearms licence, or have researched this.
Kindly do some research (or ask) before you post, as there is more than enough restrictions already in place, that is of course for us legal gun owners, as for the crims, they would want nothing more than to have their intended victims disarmed at their own expense.
Handgun target shooting along with rifle target shooting are olympic sports, there is more to owning a gun than using it for your job or hunting for 'meat' as you put it. People own them for a number of reasons aside from the ones you think should be the only ones.
Regards,
OWDU
OldSolduer
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Siovan said:
Its not up to government to tell me what I can and can't own, within reason of course. I don't require a half ton truck either, but I have one. Don't fall prey to the nanny state.
Eye In The Sky
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Siovan said:
Ok
Andddddddddddddddddddddd....this is where you lost me. What should we use against these criminals....paintball guns? Gummie bear launchers? Most of the criminals that we need to protect ourselves from are armed, some are wacked out on drugs and more than ready to use their weapons.
Sure, if you believe the people that are using handguns, prohibited/restricted firearms for illegal means are getting them at the local gun shop, after taking the required courses, getting permits, etc. IMO, gun control only affects Joe Law-Abiding-Citizen, who I am not too worried about in the first place. Its the gangs and such who get guns in the 'black market' that are the ones we need to target, IMO. Not Uncle Raymond and his 12 gauge shotgun he takes to the duck blind.
Then why would we spend taxpayers dollars on something that is not going to work before we even try it?
Oh ok. You agree on that.
Then why...have stricter rules to get a permit for a gun, if it (gun control) is not enforceable ???
- The 'gateway' is not the gun, it is the user. Guns can sit buried for years. Users have to eat and buy gas and work and hang out with other users. Easier to 'gateway' the 5,000,000 cCanadians with a criminal/psych record than 15,000,000 guns. So, what to do?
- Convert the CFC to track people instead of guns - they should keep a registry of people banned from possessing/owning/using guns as listed by court orders. You want to buy a gun? The seller calls Miramachi. If you are not on their list, you can buy it.
- Convert the CFC to track people instead of guns - they should keep a registry of people banned from possessing/owning/using guns as listed by court orders. You want to buy a gun? The seller calls Miramachi. If you are not on their list, you can buy it.
OldSolduer
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2 Cdo said:
OK you got me on that one.....but my 1/2 ton is awesome!
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OldSolduer said:
Most full-size trucks have a certain degree of "awesomeness" to them. I just built myself a nice gun rack for behind the seat and threw in a 4 inch suspension lift!
9'er domestic now needs a rope ladder to get in the truck! ;D
OldSolduer
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2 Cdo said:
Mine has to almost use a stepladder, but its stock.
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