The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged

[vonGarvin]

The Royal Canadian Legion started as "The Great War Veterans' Association".  Why not start an "Afghanistan War Veterans' Association?"  I think that the poppy could be supplanted by the marajuana leaf as our "emblem of remembrance"

In Panjwai's fields, the marajuana grows
Between the mudhuts, row on row
That mark our LD; and in the sky
The Apaches, still bravely gunning, fly
Scare heard amid the Bushmasters below.


EDIT: Apologies to LCol McRae.  This is just me being sarcastic.

 

[military granny]

OK I have to put my $0.02  worth in here. Yes the Legion Poppy Campaign generates money but do you know where that money goes ? Any Legion across Canada has to abide by strict rules on where the money collected can be donated.This fund can not be used for everyday cost of running the Legion.  VETERANS or Veteran extended care facilities,widows of Veterans etc. receive most of the money. If there was no copyright on the poppy, and it was available year round, do you really think the Legion could collect enough money to help our Veterans as much as they do?

http://legion.ca/asp/docs/rempoppy/mandate_e.asp


The major source of funding for the Legion to accomplish this most important work is the annual Poppy Campaign, the foundation of our Remembrance Program. It is the generosity of Canadians that enables the Legion to ensure that our veterans and their dependants are cared for and treated with the respect that they deserve.

 

[Greymatters]

All those who think they shouldn't hold a copyright should keep quiet then when a website like this pops up...............cause it will.

There is nothing wrong with their holding a copyright for the products they produce or sell, however the Legion has claimed the image of the poppy as theirs and no one else's.  It may be legal, but I find it ethically and morally wrong.  The poppy does not belong to a corporation, it belongs to the men and women and their families who fought for peace, and those who support that concept.  The copyright should be used as a tool to protect the symbol from misuse, not as a money-making machine.  Any person or organization should be able to show that symbol as a gesture of their support, not be told to take it down.  

 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

They can,.......just not the copyrighted one without permission.

See MG's post above for more.

 

[Strike]

Granny,

In response to your statement does that mean the copywrite is on the symbol or the plastic poppy alone?

I fail to see how posting a photo on a web site can reduce the number of poppies sold over the season.  Now, if someone was making poppy pins and selling/giving them away, I could see the upset.

Which brings up a good point...wouldn't the white poppy pins be considered a copywrite infringment?

(Aside: Always held to the belief that the Legion kept the current design of a straight pin to that we would lose them more often and have to keep buying them.   ;D  It's for a good cause.  What do I care.)

 

[vonGarvin]

(Aside: Always held to the belief that the Legion kept the current design of a straight pin to that we would lose them more often and have to keep buying them.   ;D  It's for a good cause.  What do I care.)

It may just be a conspiracy theory, but you're right: it's for a good cause and I buy a poppy about once every two to three days, it seems.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You don't have to buy them if you don't want too, that is just an option.
[not aimed at you Strike/ MR,.. just saying]

 

[Blindspot]

As a graphic designer, I can understand copyright issues on logos, combination marks etc. The government of Ontario has a stylized trillium that shouldn't be used boundlessly. As for the sentiment factor, the solution is simple. Option one: render your own poppy. The shape is open to individual interpretation within easily constructed limits. The colours are a no-brainer. The second option would be for him to ask permission. If he's refused, see option one.

Seems to me, either option would have more sentiment behind it then simply plastering someone else's intellectual property on your website.

 

[military granny]

Strike
All the web site had to do was contact the Legion Command and ask permission, hell even facebook got permission to allow people to post the poppy on their sites. The web site in question failed to do so and were told to remove it. From where I'm sitting if the owners of the web site didn't know the copywrite for the poppy was held by the Legion then OK a mistake was made and they can fix it in a few ways. If they knew and ignored it then there could be big trouble, still fixable with a letter sent to Legion Command.

 

[JBoyd]

I agree with that the website should have asked to use the legions stylized poppy, however the legion does not hold rights to the poppy in general, or the fact it is used as a rememberance due to a poem. The poppy will be around long after the legion , and most likely will still hold the same rememberance, not only due to a national holiday, but from the passing on's of generations. I support wearing poppy's in rememberance, however perhaps this year I will construct my own poppy for rememberance.

 

[redleafjumper]

Military Granny is completely correct.  As a past legion branch president, I can assure you that there all sort of persons who are quite willing to misuse or misrepresent the poppy for purposes not in keeping with the poppy as the symbol of remembrance.  Consider the 'white poppy" which pops up as a direct counterpoint to the blood red poppy of Flanders. There are a number of stylized versions of the poppy symbol in use for the Poppy Campaign and remembrance and they are all copyrighted by the various legions including the British Commonwealth ex-Services  League, British Legion and so on.  The design of the poppy varies greatly from country to country; a friend brought me a nice one from Australia which is a long stemmed poppy which looks quite flower-like.

It should be remembered that at the conclusion of the Great War, there were many veteran's organizations.  It was very quickly realized that combining those with common interests would make the greater sum of them much more effective in furthering the aims and needs of veterans.  Some groups never merged with the Legion and chose to remain separate.  Some veterans didn't like the involvement of Field Marshall Haig who dedicated his life to veteran's causes after WW1.  Still others decried what they saw as the watering down of the Legion in the 1940s by adding those WW2 veterans and others.  I hope that we are all beyond those differences and realize that the Royal Canadian Legion is a critical part of promoting veterans' rights and ensuring that the sacrifices of the fallen are remembered  for all time.

The Poppy is the symbol of remembrance; it must be protected so as not to degrade, minimize or misrepresent that remembrance for purposes in conflict with the aims and objectives of the the Poppy Campaign and the support of veterans and their dependants.  That's why that symbol is protected and why that protection is important.  Wearing a poppy means that you have helped to support veterans and their dependants.  Wearing one you made means that haven't, and are trying to make a political statement that really helps no one.

Cheers,

Redleafjumper

 

[GAP]

The RCL needs to give it's head a shake.....

Displaying the poppy for purposes of support of the RCL campaign and Remembrance Day is not the people you need to be slagging by threatening court action. If the purpose is being misused....fine go after them with both barrels blazing.....but displaying for purposes of support.....gimme a break!!

and don't tell me about setting precedents.....that's crap.

 

[the 48th regulator]

"The poppy is a trademark of the legion and anyone who wants to use it has to apply," wrote Bob Butt, the communications director of the organization's Dominion Command. "Otherwise it would be all over the place."

Butt's e-mail added: "Sorry, I know your heart and many others are in the right place."

Why then did he not explain it as a loss of income, from being on his site.

My understanding is that Butt does not wish to water down the meaning of the Poppy, through mass use.

Now to me, this just says that they can pick an choose who can use the Poppy?  I hope they remember that the next time the general public takes action against a store or some other corporate organization that refuses to acknowledge the Poppy.

dileas

tess

 

[redleafjumper]

Of course the Legion clears who might use the poppy for corporate purposes and certainly those wanting to "use" the poppy should expect to ask.  The problem with places not "acknowledging the poppy" as Tess put it, is usually one of refusing to allow the Legion to canvass for the poppy campaign. 

It is probably useful at this point to review the specific uses of the poppy funds.

The Poppy is the symbol of Remembrance and funds raised in the poppy campaign are used for:

1.  Assistance to ex-service personnel and their dependants
2.  Affordable housing and care facilities for veterans and other elderly or disabled persons and their dependants
3.  Community medical appliances and medical research and training
4.  Support services for seniors such as drop-in centres, meals-on-wheels, transportation and related services
5.  Providing bursaries for needy students
6.  Cost of the poppies, wreaths and supplies

When one donates to the poppy campaign and wears a poppy, or displays a wreath, or just makes a donation, that is what the money is used to support.  The money is used in the community where it is raised except if unspent at the end of the poppy campaign year (early fall) when left-over funds are collected by command for provincial projects that support the above.  I have personally helped to distribute these funds and it is heartening to see the difference that these public monies, held and given out in trust by the RC Legion, make to people.

The Legion does not have a monopoly on remembering the fallen, as that is a personal matter, but the Legion is the custodian of the symbol of remembrance and how that symbol is used.  I firmly believe that that custodianship is needed, well warranted and well looked after by the Royal Canadian Legion. 

 

[GAP]

Nobody is arguing that for corporate purposes the RCL should mandate permission.

A little common sense needs to be used here.

If, close to Remembrance Day, a site puts a poppy on to remember the fallen, that enhances the RCL campaign.

There is no return to the website owner for displaying the poppy at that time, other than that people are being encouraged to remember the upcoming day of remembrance.

 

[redleafjumper]

GAP, it actually depends on the site.  Some sites may have messages which may not be in line with the purposes of the poppy campaign.  Does the use of the symbol need to be carefully controlled?  Of course it does, or the message might be confused or associated with some purpose of a questionable nature.  That's why it is important to ask, because sometimes it might be necessary to say "no".

 

[Munxcub]

It's not like they were asking for a license fee to display it, just ask permission first. (unless I missed something...)

 

[1feral1]

I am afeard the Legion is out of caidance with this move.


Wes

 

[redleafjumper]

As I understand the original point, the group in question posted poppy imagery without seeking permission.  That is a clear violation of the  copyright held by the Legion.  What the posting agency needed to do was seek permission before posting and receive a response.  When permission has not been obtained then the posting must come down until permission has been obtained.  Good intentions aside, without some control, there would continue to be serious risks of misuse of the poppy. 

Seems straightforward to me.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

..and for some reason I believe the Legion and Bourque's website have clashed before.