The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[MarkOttawa]

One can compare what USN pays for Super Hornets with what USAF pays for F-35As to get good idea of comparative base acquisition pricing of the aircraft, quite relevant to RCAF.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Loachman]

It's really not possible to make cost comparisons with what we would pay.  I suppose it's useful for comparing the price that the US pays for different frames.

The packages would be completely different, yes. The USN is most likely buying little other than aircraft and parts. We'd need much more than that (not that we need this purely-political purchase at all).

The links on Bourque Newswatch www.bourque.org are entitled  "If US Navy can buy 80 Super Hornets for $7.1 Billion .." "WHY WOULD TRUDEAU PAY $10 BILLION FOR JUST 18 SUPER HORNETS ?"

That should cause some media and public discussion

 

[Kirkhill]

Based on the info from these two articles

https://news.usni.org/2017/06/13/navy-intends-to-buy-80-more-super-hornets-in-fydp-to-ease-fighter-shortfall
https://www.f35.com/about/fast-facts/cost

And applying a 1.33 CAD/USD exchange rate I come to the following

F18 E

2018 119 MCAD
2019 113 MCAD
2020 128 MCAD
2021 121 MCAD
2022 113 MCAD

F35A 

LRIP 10 126 MCAD
2019 Goal 113 MCAD

As I understand it both aircraft numbers are based on unit flyaway costs with engines and equipment (presumably minus weapons and stores).

 

[MarkOttawa]

Chris Pook: Thanks.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Bearpaw]

C.P.:

Do those figures include the latest software upgrade charges?

Bearpaw

 

[kev994]

Super Hornet apparently has a foreign sales tax for us, F35 does not.

 

[Kirkhill]

C.P.:

Do those figures include the latest software upgrade charges?

Bearpaw

Can't honestly say.  Any references in the articles cited?

 

[Kirkhill]

More on Boeing's restructuring, and the corollaries across the defence industry, by Sandra Erwin  http://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/06/15/boeing_defense_shake-up_signals_broader_shifts_in_industry_111592.html

“A company like Boeing is in a difficult spot,” Mahoney says. Its defense business is heavily reliant on traditional military hardware like fighter jets and satellites. It now has to figure out how to position itself for a future when wars are fought with vastly different tools, Mahoney observes. “We are changing from the old model of large-scale invasions and occupations to virtual war waged constantly.”

How's Kodak doing these days?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Meanwhile, from the CDS (via CBC) ...

The chief of the defence staff says he is keeping the F-35 fighter jet on the table as suitable option to bolster the air force's fleet, despite the Liberals' campaign promise not to buy the jet.

"The most critical thing for me, as I look to the long term health and capacity of the institution, is that very important commitment to an open competition with no barriers to that competition," Gen. Jonathan Vance, told Chris Hall, host of CBC Radio's The House.

(...)

The defence plan calls for a "fighter fleet that is capable, upgradeable, resilient and interoperable with our allies and partners to ensure Canada continues to meet its Norad and NATO commitments."

When asked if the open competition would include Lockheed Martin's F-35, Vance said it does.

"It includes all of the planes. It includes the Super Hornet, the F-35 , all of the planes. That's a good thing so we can actually see what planes are going to provide us the operational advantage that we need as we defend Canada and operate globally," he said ...

 

[AlexanderM]

If this is true, in terms of cost, then there shouldn't be any problem for us to make a purchase at either $95M USD or the quoted $85M USD. Our new fighter budget can easily handle these numbers. I take it, should we go ahead, we will still order the version capable of carrying 6 internal missiles, and would expect to eventually be able to carry the Meteor missile.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/19/news/companies/lockheed-martin-f35-fighter-jet-deal/index.html

 

[MarkOttawa]

Gosh!  Finland to issue RFP for new fighter to replace Hornets next year:

Competitors jockey for Finland fighter deal

In a significant move, Finland’s Finance Ministry has included a provision to pay for the first tranche of the proposed new fighter acquisition from debt incurred from 2018 to 2019. It's a decision that has spurred competitors' marketing to kick into overdrive.

The government plans to fund the first tranche, payment expected by 2021, from loans totaling €3.6 billion (U.S. $4 billion). 

"We are confident the operating and maintenance costs of the fighters we are buying can be covered from within the annual defense budgets going forward," said Petteri Orpo, Finland’s finance minister.

Five international bidding groups, including Boeing (F/A-18E/F Super Hornet), Lockheed Martin (F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter), BAE Systems (Eurofighter Typhoon), Saab (Gripen E) and Dassault Aviation (Rafale), will battle for the HX FPP contract. Depending on the aircraft type selected by Finland, the value of the contract is expected to be worth between €7 billion (U.S. $7.8 billion) and €10 billion (U.S. $11.2 billion).

The next stage in the HX FPP will see Finland's Defence project office issue requests for proposals to the governments of the five aircraft manufacturers. The RFPs will be sent out to competing manufacturers during the second quarter of 2018. In a forward-looking request, the MoD will ask all five manufacturers to demonstrate how the capabilities of their specific fighter aircraft offerings can be augmented by other aircraft types, including unmanned platforms like surveillance and weaponized drones.

"The Finnish Air Force (FAF) of tomorrow will need to be stronger and more adaptable. We are looking for a full range of options that will reflect possible future changes in air defense," said Jussi Niinistö, Finland’s defense minister.

The FAF is on course to replace its existing fleet of an estimated 60 operational multi-role Boeing F/A-18 Hornets by 2025 [emphasis added, cf. RCAF]...
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/competitors-jockey-for-finland-fighter-deal

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Quirky]

If this is true, in terms of cost, then there shouldn't be any problem for us to make a purchase at either $95M USD or the quoted $85M USD. Our new fighter budget can easily handle these numbers.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/19/news/companies/lockheed-martin-f35-fighter-jet-deal/index.html

Buying a fighter jet in Canada would require a decision to be made, something our politicians and leadership can't do. We can't provide proper boots for our feet so how the hell can they decide on jets. Our procurement process is a circus of epic proportions, our allies will be flying their F35s come 2020 and we will still be just talking about it.

Meanwhile at the CDS' office....

 

[AlexanderM]

I was more refering to the fact that with the new budget and the most recent price quote we can now afford to purchase the F-35 should we choose to. We could also purchase F-35 interim fighters at those numbers. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Trump we needed a political solution to get military spending in Canada up to where it should be and with the 70% increase in defence spending we are now getting somewhere. I think it's entirely possible that the poitics of the situation may yet lead us back to the F-35, especially with numbers like the ones linked to above. We just need to let the political process continue.

 

[Kirkhill]

Gosh!  Finland to issue RFP for new fighter to replace Hornets next year:

Mark
Ottawa

Even more radical ..... a clear statement of financing.  The Finns will borrow money to buy the planes today and then pay back the loan over time.

Why does nobody else do stuff like that?  I mean with thinking like that you could buy all sorts of stuff - planes, ships, bridges, houses, cars.

Sarcasm off.  I actually really like this because it clarifies budgeting - it clearly defines the purpose of borrowing, as opposed to borrowing for general revenues, and it clearly defines a payment plan.

Finland's books are in very good condition, even by northern European standards.  We could consider some emulation.

 

[a_majoor]

F-35 demonstration pilot promises to crush previous impressions of the F-35 with his performance at the Paris Air show:

http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show-2017/f-35-demo-pilot-paris-performance-will-crush-years-misinformation

F-35 Demo Pilot: Paris Performance Will ‘Crush Years Of Misinformation'
Jun 18, 2017 Lara Seligman | ShowNews

Not as agile as the Super Hornet nor as fast as the Typhoon? Don’t you believe it, says Lockheed Martin test pilot Billie Flynn. He will put the F-35A through its paces at Le Bourget this week, proving that the aircraft is more maneuverable than any he has flown, he says, including Boeing’s F/A-18, the Eurofighter, and his own company’s F-16 Viper.

“After 10 years since first flight, with our first opportunity to demonstrate the capabilities and the maneuverability of the F-35, we are going to crush years of misinformation about what this aircraft is capable of doing,” Flynn said in an interview with Aviation Week.

The F-35’s maneuverability is all the more impressive because, unlike the F-16s that perform at air shows, the Joint Strike Fighter flying the demonstration this week is fully combat-ready. Flynn’s F-35A will move easily through complex aerial maneuvers loaded with everything it needs to go to war.

“All of those airplanes that do air shows—the Hornet, Viper—they are all slicked off without all the external stores,” Flynn said. “They are a party trick at an air show, versus a combat-configured F-22 or F-35.”

The flight demonstration is carefully scripted to highlight the kinematic capabilities of the F-35A, particularly its slow-speed handling qualities, said Flynn. He will start with an afterburner takeoff, almost immediately pointing his nose to the sky and letting the aircraft climb away essentially vertically. This impressive move is unique to the F-22 and the F-35, he said.


Billie Flynn aims to silence the skeptics with complex F-35A demo flights at the Paris Air Show.

Next, Flynn will reverse back in front of the crowd, and perform a “square loop” to show the aircraft’s instantaneous pitch capability and high angle-of-attack (AOA) maneuverability. Then he will turn around, reverse back in front of the crowd, and perform a slow-speed, high-AOA pass. Afterward, he will light the afterburner and fly straight up into the sky once again.

From there, Flynn will pull up vertically in front of the crowd and execute a maximum AOA “power loop,” where the aircraft flips on its back—another signature Raptor move. Then he will initiate a spiral at 50 degrees AOA, called a “pedal turn,” which he says will be the most impressive part of the entire routine.

After reversing again in front of the crowd, the last move is a maximum-G, 360-deg. turn, which highlights the maximum-rate, minimum-radius-turn capability of the aircraft, Flynn said. The F-35 in its current 3i configuration is limited to 7g; when the fighter gets its full war-fighting capability with the final 3F software, it will be able to pull 9gs.

“This aircraft down low in this environment is an absolute monster,” said Flynn. ”It is more powerful, it is more aggressive than any of us, including those of us that fly the F-35, would have imagined before we began this flight-demo process.”

The high show does not include the F-35 opening its weapon-bay doors, as the F-22 does during its airshow routine. The low show, which the F-35 will perform if there is inclement weather or cloud ceiling, includes opening the weapon-bay doors, according to Lockheed spokesman Mark Johnson.

Lockheed’s F-35 airshow profile has been in the works for well over a year, according to Flynn. The team has conducted over 800 simulator runs to evaluate the profile, and Flynn began practicing in the aircraft at the company’s facility in Fort Worth, Texas, about a month ago.

The company has developed air show routines for all three F-35 variants—the U.S. Navy F-35C carrier variant and the U.S. Marine Corps F-35B vertical-takeoff-and-landing variant as well—but this year Flynn is focused on the U.S. Air Force F-35A version.

Flynn had to modify the routine to accommodate airspace restrictions unique to the Paris show, he said. Flying is limited laterally and vertically because of Le Bourget’s proximity to both to the city of Paris and Charles De Gaulle Airport. Flynn is also limited by time—he only has 6 min. for the routine at Le Bourget, where at most air shows he would have 10 min.

“We focused on the ‘wow’ factor and left out the elements of a routine that would be part of a non-Paris-type profile,” Flynn said. “You have to live inside very tight restrictive boundaries, but it still permits us to put on a show that I believe will squelch the critics once and for all.”

So how will the F-35 demonstration compare to the Raptor’s always-impressive routine? It’s very similar, Flynn said.

“We all love what the Raptor can do. I would say the F-35 and the F-22 both put on demonstrations that are unique to our fifth-gen maneuverability,” said Flynn. “But don’t forget, that’s not how we dominate—we dominate because of stealth and sensor fusion.”

The two F-35As from Hill AFB, Utah, arrived at Le Bourget Airport June 13 and will be maintained on-site by Air Force maintainers and security personnel. One aircraft will be flying, and one will be on static display.

The "against" arguments continue to weaken. All I will say is the longer we delay the less relevant we will become in the future, and acting as bomb and missile "trucks" for foreign flight leaders in F-35's to direct takes away any illusions of Canada's independent ability to act or even place our own "national caveats" on actions (when a USAF, RAF or Danish flight leader is roaming ahead and designating targets, do you really think the Canadian pilot gets to question what is being shot at?)

 

[Rifleman62]

F-35 Aerial Demonstration Debut at 2017 Paris Air Show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93NdwZAeXhI

And:

Lockheed Martin’s F-35A Performs Validation Flight at Paris Air Show 2017 – AINtv Express

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFa44zqfF3k

Published on Jun 16, 2017
Before the opening of the 2017 Paris Air Show, Lockheed Martin senior experimental test pilot Billie Flynn must validate the F-35A Lightning II flying display for show officials, providing an early opportunity to see it in action. This is the F-35A model, which is flown by the United States Air Force, and it is the first time it has appeared at the Paris Air Show. Last year, the STOVL-capable F-35B variant made its international

 

[AlexanderM]

It didn't seem to need much runway for the takeoff, so the length of runway is for landing? The F-35 does need a rather long runway compared to some other fighter jets, yes??

 

[Quirky]

It didn't seem to need much runway for the takeoff, so the length of runway is for landing? The F-35 does need a rather long runway compared to some other fighter jets, yes??

No it doesn't. It was probably initially at airshow weight - minimal fuel load and nothing else, just like all the other airshow performers. Even our CF18 demo aircraft isn't fully fuelled for its show making the takeoff shorter. Give it three jugs and a few thousand lbs worth of ammunition then it takes a lot more runway for rotation.

 

[AlexanderM]

No it doesn't. It was probably initially at airshow weight - minimal fuel load and nothing else, just like all the other airshow performers. Even our CF18 demo aircraft isn't fully fuelled for its show making the takeoff shorter. Give it three jugs and a few thousand lbs worth of ammunition then it takes a lot more runway for rotation.

If you read the article above, it refutes what your saying, not the same configuration as the other air show performers. The reason I brought it up was that modifications to our airfields was a requirement to operate the F-35 and I recall that lengthening the runways was one of the requirements.

I'm now thinking that it is likely in the event that the aircraft is carrying a full compliment of external weapons and fuel which would only occur when stealth is not required.

From above:

The F-35’s maneuverability is all the more impressive because, unlike the F-16s that perform at air shows, the Joint Strike Fighter flying the demonstration this week is fully combat-ready. Flynn’s F-35A will move easily through complex aerial maneuvers loaded with everything it needs to go to war.

“All of those airplanes that do air shows—the Hornet, Viper—they are all slicked off without all the external stores,” Flynn said. “They are a party trick at an air show, versus a combat-configured F-22 or F-35.”

 

[a_majoor]

It didn't seem to need much runway for the takeoff, so the length of runway is for landing? The F-35 does need a rather long runway compared to some other fighter jets, yes??

Full afterburner takeoffs should not take a lot of runway. It might be terminology, but using afterburners and doing a vertical zoom climb was pioneered back in the 80's by F-15 and F-16 pilots. The aircraft had power to weight ratios over unity with afterburner, allowing them to accelerate in vertical climbs.....

I'm not clear if the F-35 has a greater than usual landing run compared to similarly sized fighters, but the Paris Airshow demonstration had the plane with a full loadout so was landing heavier than what may be normal.