The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[a_majoor]

Great.  Now you did it, SKT.  Someone's going to try and Viam Inveniemus...
Hold my beer  ;D ...

At least it is a plan, not a political cluster f**k as politicians try to kick the can down the road from making another thoughtless campaign promise....

 

[Loachman]

Three retired air force generals say buying used fighter jets from Australia is a much better plan for Canada than purchasing new Super Hornets from Boeing.

Unless they come with used Pilots and Techs and parts from Australia, they will just remain parked along with the ones that we already have awaiting parts and work. More empty, broken, lonely jets.

It is still not worth the money and wasted effort, just to solve a non-existent (other than Liberal pride) problem.

 

[dimsum]

Unless they come with used Pilots and Techs and parts from Australia, they will just remain parked along with the ones that we already have awaiting parts and work. More empty, broken, lonely jets.

It is still not worth the money and wasted effort, just to solve a non-existent (other than Liberal pride) problem.

So we'll Canadian-ize an Australian-ized American product.  That can't possibly go wrong.

 

[GAP]

Think subs.    :facepalm:

 

[MilEME09]

Think subs.    :facepalm:

not to mention the climate those planes would be flying, and resting in would be completely different from Australia. Their birds were built in the mid eighties till 1990, with more operational squadrons then us, and probably flying more. I'd like to see the flying hours on those airframes before we tell if it is even remotely a good idea.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Final two paras on new Belgian fighter sound rather too much like Canada:

...
France did not submit an offer to the Belgian fighter competition, and instead offered a wide-ranging, government-to-government partnership based on the Rafale, and including a substantial offsets and training package.

France’s decision to make a last-minute, unsolicited offer to Belgium of a strategic partnership based on the Rafale combat aircraft is a gamble, pushing the issue into the political arena and away from purely technical considerations.

Although the Belgian government tried to ensure a fair competition by dealing with governments, instead of directly with the bidding companies, its Request for Government Proposals could not hide the fact that operational requirements were written by its air force, where many consider the F-35 a desirable aircraft despite its long history of ballooning costs and technical problems.

Politicians generally tend to trust their military, and so support their recommendations because they do not have the knowledge to double-guess them or to realize whether specs were slanted.

This pro-F-35 slant is the reason for Boeing’s withdrawal from the Belgian competition, while Sweden pulled out in June because it was not prepared to support Belgian fighters on foreign operations.

Slanted requirements are also the reason Dassault did not compete the Rafale in Denmark, where the competition was so partial that Boeing is now suing the Danish government.

The real question: go Dutch or go French?

But whether the Belgian competition is fair or not is beside the point. From the outset, the only question is whether Belgium wants its air force to go Dutch or French.

Over the past decade or two, Belgium has merged its navy with that of The Netherlands, its northern neighbor, and the two have recently launched a joint naval shipbuilding program.

As for the army, Belgium in June chose to buy the same new-generation armored vehicles that France is developing under the Scorpion program, and said it would invest billions of euros to buy and operate them in close cooperation with the French army.

Now, decision-time has arrived for its air force.

Belgium currently operates F-16s like the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway, with which it acquired them in a joint buy; all three have already opted for the F-35.

If Belgium wants its air force to closely cooperate or more closely integrate with France’s Armée de l’air, it will buy the Rafale. This would give it access to French airspace, training, joint operations, as well as allowing Belgium to share in the definition of the next variant of Rafale. Its aerospace industry would also gain access to the Rafale supply chain, and possibly more.

If it wants to go Dutch – and half of Belgium speaks Dutch, while the other half speaks French – then it will choose the F-35, and prolong their relationship they have on the F-16...

Politics trumps capabilities

But, whichever aircraft wins, the sad fact is that Belgium’s final decision will be barely influenced by operational aspects, and even less by whether the aircraft it buys is suited to its needs and capabilities.

So, why bother to hold long, expensive and bothersome competitions at all?
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/186610/belgian-fighter-competition%3A-three-down%2C-two-to-go%3F.html

Let's ask Bombardier, eh?

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kirkhill]

Have you checked out the ads at Defense-Aerospace?

Leonardo.  Dassault.  Rafale. Airbus.  MBDA.

Strangely I have never seen a pro- F35 article from that source.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Chris Pook--fully realize Defence-Aerospace.com is strongly slanted against F-35--but this article is not exactly pro-Rafale (part of reason I used it).

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So we quadruple the overhead for spare parts storage? Even if we make RCAF depots in Cold Lake and Bagotville, do we just screw Trenton for parts? Or all the Tac Hel sqns? What about Comox and Shearwater? More depots means more buildings, heating, power, PYs. Its not efficient even if you have to wait an extra day for something to get shipped. I'm sure if it was an urgent operational requirement it would be overnighted to you, or likely there would be some stock on the shelves.

Just to add to SSM and Loachmens valid points;  sometimes we go out the door very quickly and with a travel claim to conduct ops.  We usually take a list of spare parts with us, some on the plane and some on a follow-on plane like a Herc.  If a critical part for the Acoustics system, radios, RADAR, etc aren't available as spares locally when we go, and then we break XXXXkms from home, now you are looking at a major delay on ops because the local bins didn't have what we needed when we went out the door.  I've seen aircraft grounded and missions delayed or cancelled because of something as simple as a $3 light bulb while waiting for the 'spares' to arrive at our location.

Sometimes when a plane breaks and we need stuff quick, we do whats called an MRP (Mobile Repair Party) with another one of our 140s.  That takes more planes off the ramp for lines of tasking..which could then delay a critical training flight for a course, make techs scramble to get another Standby tail ready, burns hours off the planes, burns gas, and takes a handful of crew away with the MRP plane.

From the crew level I exist at, I'd like to believe it would be easier, cheaper and most importantly, operationally focused to have bigger bins with more spare parts at the place the planes and crews are flying out of normally, so the maint crews following us out the door with or behind us have the stuff they need to add to their kits.

How quick can it be?  A recent one...folks got phone calls at 5am.  They were wheels in the well by 9am.  Not much time to HPR anything that day...

 

[Kirkhill]

Chris Pook--fully realize Defence-Aerospace.com is strongly slanted against F-35--but this article is not exactly pro-Rafale (part of reason I used it).

Mark
Ottawa

:cheers:

 

[Loachman]

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/np-view-the-liberals-money-wasting-defence-shirking-politically-craven-jet-circus-gets-even-worse#comments-area

NP View: The Liberals' money-wasting, defence-shirking, politically craven jet circus gets worse

Politics, pandering and pork for a Quebec company is more important to this government than fielding a proper air force

National Post View September 8, 2017 4:09 PM EDT

Even by the abysmally low standard of Canadian military-procurement programs, the ongoing effort to replace Canada’s fleet of aging CF-18 fighter-bombers is still a thing to behold. The latest revelation, that Canada is considering buying used F-18 jets from Australia to supplement our frontline squadrons, is yet another demonstration of how unserious Justin Trudeau’s Liberal government is about providing our men and women in uniform the equipment they need to do their job.

The CF-18s need replacing; no one disputes that. The aircraft have been modernized repeatedly and remain capable of combat operations, but the airframes are nearing 40 years old, and the basic F-18 design is older still. There is a limit to how much a 40-plus-year-old jet can be upgraded. The aircraft are nearing the point where metal fatigue will preclude the kind of high-stress manoeuvres that battle requires them to make. The previous Conservative government had announced plans to purchase 65 advanced F-35 stealth fighters to replace them. The F-35 program has been a debacle, and 65 jets was too small a fleet for a country with Canada’s needs. But it was, at least, a plan - a plan the Liberals not only opposed, but campaigned against. They pledged in the last federal election to cancel the purchase and said they would never buy a single F-35.

The problem with that pledge is the Liberals also promised a full and open competition to select Canada’s next fighter. Shortly after winning that election, the Liberals seemed to have suddenly realized that a competition can be neither full nor open once you’ve pre-emptively ruled out a major and serious contender. Further compounding the Liberals’ difficulty is the fact that the F-35 - despite its execrable development process and the prime minister’s breezy dismissal that this particular advanced fighter “does not work” - has finally begun to enter service with the United States and some of Canada’s closest other allies. More integration work is needed, but the plane is formidable, and is not appreciably more expensive (over the full life cycle of any jet fleet) than other options.

This is not an endorsement of the F-35. But the facts are clear: the plane at least warrants close and fair consideration. The Liberals, though, seem dead set against that, and are going to increasingly bizarre lengths to avoid making the only logical decision: an open competition that includes the F-35. First, they proposed an interim purchase of a small fleet of F-18 Super Hornets, a more modern and advanced jet than the similarly named CF-18 Hornets we already operate. The case for this interim fleet has never been satisfactorily made; if Canada is short jets, as the government maintains (and we have no trouble believing), then the proper course of action is to proceed with the full and final fleet replacement without delay. An interim purchase, at great expense, will only suck up precious dollars and postpone the urgently needed final replacement.

Incompetence is securely at the controls. The government’s indecision and Canada’s broken military procurement system have delayed the execution of this terrible plan. And now there’s another wrinkle: the Super Hornets are built by Boeing, and Boeing is involved in a trade dispute with Ottawa’s favourite subsidized aerospace pet, Bombardier. The Liberals are applying pressure on Boeing by dangling the prospect of abandoning the interim jet order in favour of used Australian jets. (The Australians, we note, don’t need their F-18s anymore because they’re switching to F-35s, that fighter plane the prime minister insists doesn’t work and won’t consider for Canada.)

There’s nothing new about utter ineptitude in matters of Canadian military procurement. The Conservatives were also terrible, and both parties have long traditions of living down to Canada’s traditionally low standards. But the wheeling and dealing on display here is still a marvel. The primary duty of any government is to secure the safety and security of the country, including by properly equipping an appropriately sized military. There’s also the moral duty of any Canadian government to take proper care of those citizens who wear our uniform and serve as this country’s first line of defence. Somewhere in there, governments also owe taxpayers a duty to not wantonly burn piles of public money for political reasons while attempting a military-procurement process.

The Liberals are clearly signalling via their actions, however, that honouring nonsensical campaign promises, avoiding embarrassing flip-flops, and pressuring a U.S. aircraft manufacturer that’s in a dispute with a Canadian industry darling, all come first. Politics, pandering, and pork for a Quebec conglomerate are more important to this government than fielding a proper air force. Don’t take our word for it. Just watch the Liberals in action.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Ever get the feeling somebody at the National Post is reading this forum?  ;D

 

[FSTO]

Ever get the feeling somebody at the National Post is reading this forum?  ;D

I wonder. But then any person with the IQ of a slug can see that this fighter program is an epic fail.

Now the Minister has finally come out of hiding!

(its behind a paywall, but those of you on the DWAN can see it for free)
http://www.hilltimes.com/2017/09/11/new-defence-policy-lays-sustainable-fully-costed-plan-meet-ambitious-goals-military-sajjan/118180?
Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan says the Liberal government has outdone its predecessors by producing the country's first 'fully funded' defence policy to provide sustainable, long-term funding for the Canadian Armed Forces.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :-\ :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Loachman]

I'm getting everything but the main text - just a big, blank patch where it should be.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm getting everything but the main text - just a big, blank patch where it should be.

Yep, the blank bit is the detail where the "fully-costed and sustainable" magically happens. 

 

[MilEME09]

Yep, the blank bit is the detail where the "fully-costed and sustainable" magically happens. 

same place where the budget balances it self

 

[Rifleman62]

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan says the Liberal government has outdone its predecessors by producing the country's first 'fully funded' defence policy to provide sustainable, long-term funding for the Canadian Armed Forces.

Producing is not the same as executing/implementing. Right now, IMHO, it's just another Lieliberal lie.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Will we buy?

1) Bombardier dispute:

Boeing walked away from talks with Trudeau government: [Canadian] ambassador
http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/boeing-walked-away-from-talks-with-trudeau-government-ambassador-1.3585908

2) Note eight dual-seaters and cost:

Government of Canada – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft with Support

WASHINGTON, Sep. 12, 2017 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Canada of ten (10) F/A-18E Super Hornet aircraft, with F414-GE-400 engines; eight (8) F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft, with F414-GE-400 engines [emphasis added]; eight (8) F414-GE-400 engine spares; twenty (20) AN/APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars; twenty (20) M61A2 20MM gun systems; twenty-eight (28) AN/ALR-67(V)3 Electronic Warfare Countermeasures Receiving Sets; fifteen (15) AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods; twenty (20) Multifunctional Information Distribution Systems–Joint Tactical Radio System (MIDS-JTRS); thirty (30) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS); twenty-eight (28) AN/ALQ-214 Integrated Countermeasures Systems; one hundred thirty (130) LAU-127E/A and or F/A Guided Missile Launchers; twenty-two (22) AN/AYK-29 Distributed Targeting System (DTS); twenty-two (22) AN/AYK-29 Distributed Targeting Processor (DTP); one hundred (100) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II Tactical Missiles; thirty (30) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM); eight (8) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II Special Air Training Missiles (NATM); twenty (20) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II Tactical Guidance Units; sixteen (16) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II CATM Guidance Units.  Also included in this sale are AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles (NVG); AN/ALE-47 Electronic Warfare Countermeasures Systems; AN/ARC-210 Communication System; AN/APX-111 Combined Interrogator Transponder; AN/ALE-55 Towed Decoys; Joint Mission Planning System (JMPS); AN/PYQ-10C Simple Key Loader (SKL); Data Transfer Unit (DTU); Accurate Navigation (ANAV) Global Positioning System (GPS) Navigation; KIV-78 Duel Channel Encryptor, Identification Friend or Foe (IFF); CADS/PADS; Instrument Landing System (ILS); Aircraft Armament Equipment (AAE); High Speed Video Network (HSVN) Digital Video Recorder (HDVR); Launchers (LAU-115D/A, LAU-116B/A, LAU-118A); flight test services; site survey; aircraft ferry; auxiliary fuel tanks; aircraft spares; containers; storage and preservation; transportation; aircrew and maintenance training; training aids and equipment, devices and spares and repair parts; weapon system support and test equipment; technical data Engineering Change Proposals; technical publications and documentation; software; avionics software support; software development/integration; system integration and testing; U.S. Government and contractor engineering technical and logistics support; Repair of Repairable (RoR); repair and return warranties; other technical assistance and support equipment; and other related elements of logistics and program support.  The estimated total case value is $5.23 billion [!!! emphasis added].  The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on September 11, 2017.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security objectives of the United States by helping to improve the security of a NATO ally which has been, and continues to be, a key democratic partner of the United States in ensuring peace and stability.  The acquisition of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft, associated weapons and capability will allow for greater interoperability with U.S. forces, providing benefits for training and possible future coalition operations in support of shared regional security objectives.

The proposed sale of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft will improve Canada’s capability to meet current and future warfare threats and provide greater security for its critical infrastructure.  Canada will have no difficulty absorbing this equipment into its armed forces ]really? emphasis added].

The proposed sale of this equipment and support does not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The principal contractors will be:  Boeing Company, St. Louis, MO; Northrop Grumman, Los Angeles, CA; Raytheon, El Segundo, CA; General Electric, Lynn, MA; and Raytheon Missile Systems Company, Tucson, AZ.  The Government of Canada has advised that it will negotiate offset agreements with key U.S. contractors. 

Implementation of this proposed sale will require the assignment of contractor representatives to Canada on and intermittent basis over the life of the case to support delivery of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft and weapons and to provide supply support management, inventory control and equipment familiarization.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.
http://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/government-canada-fa-18ef-super-hornet-aircraft-support

3) Globe and Mail story:

U.S. approves sale of 18 Super Hornet jets to Canada for $6.4-billion
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/us-approves-sale-of-18-super-hornet-jets-to-canada-for-64-billion/article36238437/

That's $355M each all-in, folks!

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Compare with Kuwait's 40 Super Hornet approval, eight dual seat, plus stuff--C$12.3B or about $300M each:

The Government of Kuwait – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft with Support

The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Kuwait for F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft with support, equipment, and training. The estimated cost is $10.1 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on November 17, 2016.

The Government of Kuwait has requested to purchase thirty-two (32) F/A-18E aircraft, with F414-GE-400 engines; eight (8) F/A-18F aircraft, with F414-GE-400 engines; eight (8) spare F414-GE-400 engines and twenty-four (24) engine modules; forty-one (41) AN/APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radars; forty-four (44) M61A2 20mm Gun Systems; forty-five (45) AN/ALR-67(V)3 Radar Warning Receivers; two hundred and forty (240) LAU-127E/A Guided Missile Launchers; forty-five (45) AN/ALE-47 Airborne Countermeasures Dispenser Systems; twelve (12) AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER Advanced Targeting Pods; forty-eight (48) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS); forty-five (45) AN/ALQ-214 Radio Frequency Counter-Measures Systems; forty-five (45) AN/ALE-55 Towed Decoys; forty-eight (48) Link-16 Systems; eight (8) Conformal Fuel Tanks; and fourteen (14) AN/ASQ-228 ATFLIR Systems. Also included in the sale are ARC-210 radio (aircraft); Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) systems; AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles (NVG); Launchers (LAU- 115D/A, LAU-116B/A, LAU-l 18A); Command Launch Computer (CLC) for Air to Ground Missile 88 (AGM-88); ANAV/MAGR GPS Navigation; Joint Mission Planning System (JMPS); aircraft spares; Aircraft Armament Equipment (AAE); support equipment; aircrew/maintenance training; contractor engineering technical service; logistics technical services; engineering technical services; other technical assistance; contractor logistics support; flight test services; storage and preservation; aircraft ferry; Repair of Repairable (RoR); support systems and associated logistics; training aides and devices; spares; technical data Engineering Change Proposals; avionics software support; software; technical publications; engineering and program support; U.S. Government and contractor engineering; technical and logistic support services. The estimated total program cost is $10.1 billion.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a Major Non-NATO Ally that has been, and continues to be, an important force for political and economic progress in the Middle East. Kuwait is a strategic partner in maintaining stability in the region. The acquisition of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft will allow for greater interoperability with U.S. forces, providing benefits for training and possible future coalition operations in support of shared regional security objectives.

The proposed sale of the F/A- l8E/F Super Hornet aircraft will improve Kuwait's capability to meet current and future warfare threats. Kuwait will use the enhanced capability to strengthen its homeland defense. The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft will supplement and eventually replace the Kuwait Air Force's aging fighter aircraft. Kuwait will have no difficulty absorbing this aircraft into its armed forces.
The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The prime contractors will be The Boeing Company, St. Louis, Missouri; Northrop Grumman in Los Angeles, California; Raytheon Company in El Segundo, California; and General Electric in Lynn, Massachusetts. Offsets agreements associated with this proposed sale are expected; however, specific agreements are undetermined and will be defined during negotiations between the purchaser and contractor. Kuwait requires contractors to satisfy an offset obligation equal to 35 percent of the main contract purchase price for any sale of defense articles in excess of three million Kuwait Dinar, (approximately $10 million USD).

Implementation of this proposed sale will require the assignment of contractor representatives to Kuwait on an intermittent basis over the life of the case to support delivery of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft and provide support and equipment familiarization.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.
http://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/government-kuwait-fa-18ef-super-hornet-aircraft-support

Any SMEs want to compare Kuwaiti stuff with RCAF's in initial acquisition?

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Because it is the stupidest thing to do with the money, but will ensure the Liberals can keep their even stupider campaign promise of NO F35, we will likely buy. 

It's never actually been about getting the best aircraft after all ...