The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[PuckChaser]

Any SMEs want to compare Kuwaiti stuff with RCAF's in initial acquisition?

Not a SME but to help the discussion here's a list of the differences between the 2 quotes (not numbers, but specific equipment included in one but not the other):

Canada

• twenty (20) Multifunctional Information Distribution Systems–Joint Tactical Radio System (MIDS-JTRS);
• twenty-two (22) AN/AYK-29 Distributed Targeting System (DTS);
• twenty-two (22) AN/AYK-29 Distributed Targeting Processor (DTP);
• one hundred (100) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II Tactical Missiles;
• thirty (30) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM);
• eight (8) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II Special Air Training Missiles (NATM);
• twenty (20) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II Tactical Guidance Units;
• sixteen (16) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II CATM Guidance Units. 
• AN/ALE-47 Electronic Warfare Countermeasures Systems;
• KIV-78 Duel Channel Encryptor,
• AN/APX-111 Combined Interrogator Transponder;
• AN/PYQ-10C Simple Key Loader (SKL);
• Data Transfer Unit (DTU);
• CADS/PADS; Instrument Landing System (ILS);
• High Speed Video Network (HSVN) Digital Video Recorder (HDVR);

Kuwait

• forty-eight (48) Link-16 Systems;
• eight (8) Conformal Fuel Tanks; and
• fourteen (14) AN/ASQ-228 ATFLIR Systems.
• Command Launch Computer (CLC) for Air to Ground Missile 88 (AGM-88);

The piece I can speak to is the MIDS-JTRS, which is a Type 1 radio information system like Link-16, but a more modern standard. The NSA would never let Kuwait get its hands on that, and anything that is Type 1 is also not cheap.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Even if you have the same equipment, software can make a huge difference in capabilities.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Meanwhile ...

Super Hornet deal still up in the air despite green light in Washington
Price tag of $6.3B would buy 18 fighter jets, equipment, electronics and training
By Murray Brewster, CBC News Posted: Sep 12, 2017 5:16 PM ET Last Updated: Sep 12, 2017 6:36 PM ET

... It is uncertain whether the Liberal government will actually proceed with the sole-source purchase in light of its ongoing trade dispute with Boeing, which has been getting wider and more rancorous in the last few weeks ... Boeing would not comment on Tuesday's decision, other than to say it is encouraged by U.S. government support for the proposed sale ...

More @ link

 

[dimsum]

Max (and others),

If the F is designed to have a WSO in the back and not as a trainer, what do you think is the reasoning behind 10 Es and 8 Fs?  It seems to me that we're splitting our already-small fleet of 18 into 2 sub-fleets.

 

[AlexanderM]

Meanwhile ...More @ link

I hope we don't make this deal.

Concerning the Boeing complaint, just wanted to point out that over 50% of the parts for the C Series aircraft are made in the good old USA and these are US government numbers.

http://trade.gov/topmarkets/pdf/Aircraft_Parts_Top_Markets_Report.pdf

There are three primary overseas manufacturers of
large civil aircraft and regional jets: Airbus (based in
Europe), Bombardier (based in Canada) and Embraer
(based in Brazil). According to various reports, the
U.S. content of parts used in the production of these
manufacturers’ aircraft is significant: about 40
percent for Airbus, 53 percent for the Bombardier
“CSeries” jetliner, and 70 percent for Embraer
regional jets.

So, as the aircraft does not compete with Boeing, and with Bombardier being willing to agree not to build anything bigger, are they not shooting themselves in the foot?

 

[MarkOttawa]

AlexanderM:

...as the aircraft does not compete with Boeing, and with Bombardier being willing to agree not to build anything bigger...

Not sure what Bombardier will do.  That is the heart of the matter--Boeing wants to kill the whole CSeries but in particular a further stretch; that's worth a lot more to them than 18 Super Hornets, esp. as production for USN looks pretty sure for few more years (likely improved Block III):

...
Boeing alleges that Bombardier is using highly distortive pricing to eliminate the 737 MAX 7 from the 100 to 150-seat single aisle market, which will allow the Quebec company to bring in a CS500 — a medium single-aisle jet that would compete with Boeing’s 737-800 and MAX 8...
http://business.financialpost.com/transportation/investigation-into-boeing-petition-against-bombardier-expected-to-move-forward-trade-experts

Mark
Ottawa

 

[AlexanderM]

AlexanderM:

Not sure what Bombardier will do.  That is the heart of the matter--Boeing wants to kill the whole CSeries but in particular a further stretch; that's worth a lot more to them than 18 Super Hornets, esp. as production for USN looks pretty sure for few more years (likely improved Block III):

Mark
Ottawa

It isn't just an issue of the 18 Super Hornets. Canadian commercial carriers purchase Boeing jets, then Airbus purchases 40% of its parts from the USA, and Bombardier purchases 53% of its parts from the USA, all to maintain an open market. All of those purchases and all of that production combine to support high paying jobs in the US. Now along comes the protectionist US government and Boeing knows they are going to get support in tipping the playing field in their favor, so away we go. It then becomes a political issue in which the government must consider its response and must determine if NFTA can continue to work in such a climate. Very difficult to make a trade agreement work when Trump has so clearly demonstrated that he feels absolutely no need to play by any rules.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Max (and others),

If the F is designed to have a WSO in the back and not as a trainer, what do you think is the reasoning behind 10 Es and 8 Fs?  It seems to me that we're splitting our already-small fleet of 18 into 2 sub-fleets.

They are not missionized backseats.  They have flight controls in the back.  I think the WSO idea was scrapped.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Well, that is a head scratcher. Why would we propose to buy that many duals in a fleet of only 18?

 

[Loachman]

Gender equality?

It's 2017?

To give all of the extra fighter pilots an extra chance to fly?

Who knows, with this government?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I'll put my tinfoil hat on at this point:

Obviously, the only reason to get duals that are not missionized in the back is as trainers.

Eight trainers out of eighteen airframes is way out of whack.

Tinfoil: The Libs have already decided that the Rhino is going to win the competition when they get to it, so eight trainers for eighty-eight planes is about right for ratio. They just decided to get the trainers first.

Now that's just me talking out of my ar**, but why so many trainer otherwise? Now, that's something for a smart journalist with contacts in the department/government to investigate.

 

[dimsum]

I'll put my tinfoil hat on at this point:

Obviously, the only reason to get duals that are not missionized in the back is as trainers.

Eight trainers out of eighteen airframes is way out of whack.

Tinfoil: The Libs have already decided that the Rhino is going to win the competition when they get to it, so eight trainers for eighty-eight planes is about right for ratio. They just decided to get the trainers first.

Now that's just me talking out of my ar**, but why so many trainer otherwise? Now, that's something for a smart journalist with contacts in the department/government to investigate.

What does the USN and RAAF do for training SH Pilots and WSOs?  Obviously you can't fit 2 WSOs (instructor and student) in one plane, and as far as I understand the Ds and Fs aren't designed as training aircraft.

 

[MarkOttawa]

In fact earlier contract included seven EA-18G Growlers (see end)--pretty sure engines not included in cost for these Block IIs, in any event not comparable to all-in acquisition cost announced for RCAF:

Boeing to manufacture additional F/A-18s for U.S. Navy
The $676.6 million modification to an existing contract is for the production of F/A-18E and F/A-18F Super Hornet fighter aircraft.

Boeing Co. has received a $676.6 million modification to an existing contract for the production of F/A-18E and F/A-18F Super Hornet fighter aircraft for the U.S. Navy.

The modification, announced Wednesday [Sept. 13] by the Department of Defense, provides for the manufacture of six lot 41 F/A-18E and eight F/A-18F fighter jets. The production run is expected to be completed by February 2019...
https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2017/09/14/Boeing-to-manufacture-additional-FA-18s-for-US-Navy/2971505406579/

This contract:
https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract-View/Article/1309998/

Earlier one:
https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract-View/Article/1096345/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[OldSolduer]

What's a Rhino? Sounds like a pretty ungainly name for a plane.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Warthog? Jug? BUFF? Aardvark? Whale?

Mark
Ottawa

 

[OldSolduer]

Warthog? Jug? BUFF? Aardvark? Whale?

Mark
Ottawa

I get in now....I think. Mind you, I'm infantry or at least was when I was in. I'm a bit slow.

 

[dimsum]

Warthog? Jug? BUFF? Aardvark? Whale?

Mark
Ottawa

Don't forget the Double Ugly. 

Here's a list (probably pretty dated) of nicknames, and not just English ones.  Must be fun being in a "Lieutenant Eater".

Edit:  Added list - http://web.mit.edu/btyung/www/nickname.html

 

[Loachman]

Don't forget the Double Ugly. 

Here's a list

Where's a list?

 

[dimsum]

Where's a list?

Oops.  Added list.

 

[Journeyman]

Mind you, I'm infantry or at least was when I was in.

And always you shall be!