"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[RCR Grunt]

I'm going to steal the UCR write up, but I'm adding the fact that sternum straps from packs impede access to the mag pouches.

 

[McG]

I'm going to steal the UCR write up, ...

Just remember:

If you ever get a chance to comment officially make this [Modularity... MOLLE] the first and last point your audience hears.

If you stick this message right up front, right at the back and reference it a few times in between then it will not be missed or overshadowed by other observations you may make.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Elaborate plesase

Marines Call New Body Armor Heavy, Impractical
FoxNews article by Jennifer Griffin Wednesday, February 27, 2008

BAGHDAD, Iraq —

The Pentagon and Marine Corps authorized the purchase of 84,000 bulletproof vests in 2006 that not only are too heavy but are so impractical that some U.S. Marines are asking for their old vests back so they can remain agile enough to fight.

Marine Commandant Gen. James Conway wants to know who authorized the costly purchase of the nearly 30-pound flak jackets and has ordered the Marine procurement officers at the Quantico base in Virginia to halt the rest of an unfilled order, FOX News has learned.

"I’m not quite sure how we got to where we are, but what I do know is it is not a winner," Conway told FOX News at the end of his recent trip to Iraq.

"I think it is foolish to buy more."


Twenty-four thousand more vests were scheduled to be shipped to Iraq in the coming months, but Conway halted that order during his trip.

"I’ve asked them to tell me — to walk me through — the whole process ... how it evolved," Conway said.

"It goes back a couple of years. I think the vest has its advantages. It fits pretty well on the waist. The weight is distributed more evenly on the hips than shoulders, but Marines don’t like it. I didn’t like it when I put it on."

The protective jackets, manufactured by Protective Products International in Sunrise, Fla., are known as Modular Tactical Vests, or MTVs. With heavy plates, known as sappis, on their sides, they provide more coverage than the older vests. That makes them much safer but also much heavier. The MTVs have more protection than the older "Interceptor," made by Point Blank, and they distribute weight more evenly.

The new vests, weighing in at about 30 pounds each, are three lbs. more than previous regulation body armor. Marines, who are already carrying up to 95 lbs. depending on the mission, say they feel the difference.

The vest slips over the head, but one Marine said that because of its weight, it often rips the skin off one’s nose and scrapes the ears.

It also has a rip cord that allows for quick release should the fighter fall into water. But many Marines say the cord is hard to reach and often gets caught on equipment in their vehicles. They say it literally falls apart; one Marine said it was like getting caught in battle with your pants around your ankles.

Marines are issued an instructional video to learn how to use the vest properly.

The Marine commandant and his sergeant major, Carlton Kent, became aware of the problem during a Thanksgiving visit to Iraq. At town hall meetings, few Marines raised their hands when asked if they liked the new equipment.

Conway and his team refused to wear the vests during their visit to Iraq last week due to their weight and impracticality.

Marine Corps Systems Command, in a written statement to FOX News, said it responded in January 2006 to an Urgent Universal Need Statement from the field for better protective gear and awarded the contract in September 2006 after a series of user conferences at Quantico and in consultation with the Marine Expeditionary Forces.

The order was placed before Conway became commandant in November 2006.

Marine spokesman Lt. Col. TV Johnson said the problem with the vests is not that they are unsafe or impractical.

"Marines are still able to run and climb walls with the gear. The fact that the additional protection adds weight, and that the means of getting in and out of it "over-the-head" seem to be the chief complaints," Johnson told FOX News in an email.

"In Desert Storm, we wore flack jackets that were a fraction of the weight of the lighter vest we wore before the MTV. They wouldn't, however, stop a bullet or even a knife, so if I were going to a gunfight, I know what piece of gear I'd take," said Johnson.

FOX News National Security Correspondent Jennifer Griffin was traveling with the Marine Commandant to Iraq and Afghanistan last week. This report is part of a multi-part series also appearing on Special Report with Brit Hume at 6 pm ET.

Marine Commandant Halts Purchase of New Tactical Vests
By Jim Garamone
American Forces Press Service


WASHINGTON, Feb. 29, 2008 – Marine Commandant Gen. James T. Conway halted purchases of the Marine Corps’ new modular tactical vest after Marines complained about the equipment’s design.
Marines said the new vests are heavier and more impractical than the outer tactical vests they had been wearing.

“The feedback on the vests is that the Marines don’t like the pullover design,” said Lt. Col. T.V. Johnson, the commandant’s spokesman. “A lot of the guys get scraped about the ears and face when they put them on.

“The commandant wore it during a trip over there for Thanksgiving, and he absolutely did not like it,” Johnson said. “He made the call to not buy more until perhaps they find a way to mitigate the issues the troops are raising. That’s typical of our commandant. He listens to the Marines, and where it makes sense, he executes based on their feedback.”

The tactical vests have saved many lives in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are stories of Marines getting struck by 7.62 mm rounds and walking away with just bruises. Johnson said most of the casualties in Iraq are Marines struck in the extremities.

Both the old and new vests are built around small-arms protective inserts, ceramic plates that fit in pockets in the vests.

“I would trust my life to either one of these pieces of gear,” Johnson said. “Safety has never been an issue. If anything, the MTV is a refined edition of the OTV. It doesn’t open in the front, but it provides refined protection around the shoulders.

“The ceramic plates are integrated into the vest,” he continued. “You don’t have to strap those on and adjust them like you do in the OTV.”

Weight, however, is a problem. The basic load of a Marine is anywhere between 40 and 60 pounds, and that doesn’t include crew gear.

The Marine Corps ordered 84,000 of the new vests in 2006. The service has received 76,000. All Marines deploying to Iraq or Afghanistan are wearing the new vests, Johnson said. “Some very senior discussions are going to take place on what the way ahead is going to be,” the colonel said.

Among options are adding features to the MTV to mitigate the annoying features or for the Corps to jump to the next-generation vest, Johnson said. Marine Corps Systems Command continually looks at and suggests ways to improve gear.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

As usual bang on...so to help others a recent UCR on the Tac Vest.  Feel free to use and send many many times to DLR.  Maybe your CoC's will be faster than mine in doing actual substantiation.

Substantiation is now complete.

 

[KevinB]

Not claiming to be an expert on USMC affairs -- but their SOF who I worked with breifly while here (two missions we had overlapped) are using the Eagle CIRAS Martime.  For the conventional USMC, the MTV is enormous.  Side Plates, Bicep protection, thigh and calf protection, groin protection, neck protection, and buttock protection extensions can all have their time and place -- and the vests should be set up to accomodate them easily -- however not all those forms of protection are practical for all, and all duties.

A properly designed releasable vest like the CIRAS or Paraclete RAV is not additionally encumbering - nor the is the release prone to snagging -- I have worn the RAV in Afghanistan for almost a year - and the CIRAS in Afghan and Iraq for more than than two years combined.

FYI the USMC has an optional Armor policy in some ares of Falluja in order to better interact with the populace -- however I did not see ANYONE when I was there taking advantage of that option.  I understood some areas of the town it was being used -- time and place for everthing.

 

[NL_engineer]

...they retain warmth even when wet and still give you a degree of dexterity.  However, the stitching of the leather seems poor and I have the leather seperating in multiple places after 5 weeks of hard use; I intend on submitting a UCR on what is otherwise a fairly decent piece of kit.  What was that site again?

I was going to submit one for the same thing, but I didn't make it half way through the form before I was lost/frustrated with the form and gave up  :

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

UCR
Line 23
Equip ID for the TV is what?

 

[medaid]

I was going to submit one for the same thing, but I didn't make it half way through the form before I was lost/frustrated with the form and gave up  :

I think that was the response it was supposed to incite in the people who attempt to fill one of those things out  ;D

 

[NL_engineer]

I think that was the response it was supposed to incite in the people who attempt to fill one of those things out  ;D

Well next time I have nothing to do at work, I will try it again  :

 

[Greymatters]

I was going to submit one for the same thing, but I didn't make it half way through the form before I was lost/frustrated with the form and gave up  :

Sounds like the standard 'customer service' tactics many organizations out there use:

"If they're not willing to comply with our process, then they're not serious about their complaints..."

 

[LordOsborne]

I liked that UCR very much. Clear, concise and it repeated (arguably) the most important deficiency with the TV concept, the lack of modularity. If i would have added one thing, it would have been to tie into the difficulty in adjusting the TV - mine tends to loosen up at random moments, and it's a PITA to get buddy to help cinch me back up.

 

[MJP]

Ok for those filling out UCR's

On my comp as I can't figure out Screen capture I'll walk you through it.

Page 1-  Most is self explanatory

OPI- assigned by your ETQMS or unit UCR coordinator
UCR#- Given to you by your UCR Cordinator.  Usually in the format UIC/year/UCR # (1849/2008/0001 as an example)
Nomenclature- TAC VEST
NSN- Read it off the vest or 8416-21-920-3711

That is all for Page 1

Page 2

Line 23- Equip ID 87-382-A00 (Go see your version of Unit stores, they will be able to get this for you if it isn't the tacvest your writing on).

Subject of report- VEST,TACTICAL LOAD CARRYING

That is it for page 2

Amplification details

Fill this out as clearly as possible.  Provide examples, proofread and ensure clarity

Next step is to get your CoC to substantiate the UCR.

Voilia!  It is done.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Thanks MJP

What's the flash to bang from "CoC to substantiate the UCR." to CTS or DLR or whomever it is to get this in there inbox?

 

[MJP]

I'm trying to get a handle on that now.  I posed pretty much the same question to the ETQMS today via email.  Hopefully will have an answer soon.

 

[Teflon]

I liked that UCR very much. Clear, concise and it repeated (arguably) the most important deficiency with the TV concept, the lack of modularity. If i would have added one thing, it would have been to tie into the difficulty in adjusting the TV - mine tends to loosen up at random moments, and it's a PITA to get buddy to help cinch me back up.

He touched on that issue (adjustment)

THE TAC VEST IS NOT EASY TO ADJUST FOR SIZE WHEN ADDING OR REMOVING CLOTHING LAYERS. AN EASIER AND MORE RAPID METHOD OF ADJUSTMENT MUST BE INCORPORATED. THIS WILL MOST LIKELY REQUIRE A COMPLETE REDESIGN.

 

[McG]

What's the flash to bang from "CoC to substantiate the UCR." to CTS or DLR or whomever it is to get this in there inbox?

I suspect the tac vest has already been handed-off from the project, so this UCR will go to an Lifecycle material manager (LCMM) within DSSPM.  The UCR will have a due date on it (automatically determined by submission date. If the LCMM has not responded by that time, there is an option for the CoC to send "hasteners" (emails formally saying "hurry up!").

 

[Gunner98]

A question from the peanut gallery concerning -

"THE BAYONET MUST BE MOVED FROM THE FRONT OF THE VEST.  WHEN A SOLDIER GOES INTO THE PRONE POSITION THE HILT OF THE BAYONET DIGS INTO THE BOTTOM OF THE RIB CAGE.  THIS DOES NOT ALLOW THE SOLDIERS TO TAKE UP A PROPER FIRING POSITION.  IT ALSO STICKS OUT AND GETS CAUGHT ON OBSTACLES OR VEHICLES AS SOLDIERS CLIMB OVER/ON THEM.  SIDE/REAR MOUNTING WOULD BE BETTER CONSIDERING THAT THE BAYONET IS RARELY EVER USED.

Isn't the latest location (in many TV kit shots) recommending the 'new bayonet' to be attached on the side, horizontal, above the pouches?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Bayonet location:  I think that is maybe attributed to troops moving it on there own.

If the TV has been handed off will any further UCR's make a difference?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Not claiming to be an expert on USMC affairs -- but their SOF who I worked with breifly while here (two missions we had overlapped) are using the Eagle CIRAS Martime.  For the conventional USMC, the MTV is enormous.  Side Plates, Bicep protection, thigh and calf protection, groin protection, neck protection, and buttock protection extensions can all have their time and place -- and the vests should be set up to accomodate them easily -- however not all those forms of protection are practical for all, and all duties.

A properly designed releasable vest like the CIRAS or Paraclete RAV is not additionally encumbering - nor the is the release prone to snagging -- I have worn the RAV in Afghanistan for almost a year - and the CIRAS in Afghan and Iraq for more than than two years combined.

FYI the USMC has an optional Armor policy in some ares of Falluja in order to better interact with the populace -- however I did not see ANYONE when I was there taking advantage of that option.  I understood some areas of the town it was being used -- time and place for everthing.

Optional armour policies: I've been part of that practise before and it works great. Armour on is always recommended for urban areas  where channeled blast, fragments, and close range contacts are the usual threat, but if you're in the mountains with a big ruck on for several days, armour is an inasnely impractical addtion to the soldier's load. Armour that you can wear UNDER your combat jacket is a good option, like the UK's INIBA vest. Makes you look big and strong and hides the armour from the view if civvies while allowing you access to all your pockets. Beret instead of helmet, and no sunglasses, is a good idea as well when working on building up a rapport with the locals, I found that it makes a big difference, but of course this depends on the threat.

Heavy Duty Armour: A good idea for gate sentries and others in static sentry-type positions, like sangers, but obviously madness for troops on mobile patrols.

 

[Gunner98]

Bayonet location:  I think that is maybe attributed to troops moving it on there own.

If the TV has been handed off will any further UCR's make a difference?

Cobra-6 posted a photo in Reply #118 on: August 31, 2005, 08:58:17 - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33641.0.html showing a location.