"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[Gunner98]

Is there stuff as good or better on the market? Sure. Would any of that be as viable as a mass produced product? I do not know.

There is a good chance if the product is on the market it is being mass produced.  Take the Cadpat day pack with external add-on pouches which cost the CF almost $500 a piece from a Hamilton-based company, I think MEC and/or its suppliers could have done as good a job for a lot less.

 

[Michael OLeary]

There is a good chance if the product is on the market it is being mass produced.  Take the Cadpat day pack with external add-on pouches which cost the CF almost $500 a piece from a Hamilton-based company, I think MEC and/or its suppliers could have done as good a job for a lot less.

Which seems to lead to the question: Why didn't they bid on the contract with a better option that met all specifications at less cost?

 

[KevinB]

As for DRDC - I had the priviledge or being told by a few of their scientists that I was wrong and they new that my gear was not ergonomically correct for what I was doing.  They have made a disaster of/in/at Ft. Benning and other tests down south.

 

[R031button]

Is there stuff as good or better on the market? Sure. Would any of that be as viable as a mass produced product? I do not know. Would we all like the Sawflys or other such item? Not a bloody chance. The government has done it's due-dilligence in bringing these things in for us, and I for one am happy to see it. Are there problems with other peices of kit? Sure (Tacvest being one problematic at best peice).

I'd like to make the point that in the PRT FP coy, there's probably more Tactical Tailor MAV's being worn then Tac Vests, Tactical Tailor is known as the mass production after market kit manufacturer, and seem to have no problem keeping up with that demand. Doing a couple of hour's worth of research would turn that up. And doing a simple mass survey of combat arms soldiers would probably point the army in the direction of the MAV, if only as a guide line.

 

[Gunner98]

As for DRDC - I had the priviledge or being told by a few of their scientists that I was wrong and they new that my gear was not ergonomically correct for what I was doing.  They have made a disaster of/in/at Ft. Benning and other tests down south.

The challenge of the Bio Sci of today is:  Do you make something:
- comfortable - ergonomically correct
- protective and practical - who needs comfort if you are going to die
- cool - it just looks dapper and GI Joe, Rambo and Chuck Norris would be proud to wear it
- to the DLR specifications - the buyer
- for the Battlefiled of the moment - which has chnaged every 5 years or so
- as part of an ensemble - which would require many things to come to fruition at the same time - CTS
- with a clear balance between all of the above - where no one is completely happy, but it has something for everyone to like and to complain about - ergo this thread

 

[armyvern]

There is a good chance if the product is on the market it is being mass produced.  Take the Cadpat day pack with external add-on pouches which cost the CF almost $500 a piece from a Hamilton-based company, I think MEC and/or its suppliers could have done as good a job for a lot less.

In the "sane" world that is federal contracting (coupled of course with Canadian Business' greediness for profit and the knowledge that "we" must use the bidding process), you can rest assured that, overwhelmingly, the vast majority of items we end up with in the system are at inflated pricings.

That's the downfall of being held prisoner to the Treasury Board Act: If the suppliers who ante up their product during the bidding process all inflate their prices by 250% --- we ARE paying 250% more than the item is worth/or available for to a civ market. That's the law - we don't get to like it, but we do have to comply with it.

Want a better idea of it's rampantness for those business' who know our hands are tied? Take a walk downtown into that store which currently holds the Federal National Standing Offer for office furniture and stationary:  Pick out a desk on their floor and note the advertised price on the floor and the price marked in their annual catalogue along with the model number. Now, go back to your local procurement cell and ask them to order you the same desk off the NSO ... I guarantee you right now that the price quoted back from the company (and listed in the NSO) is 15-20% higher than what that desk cost via the store advertised price or their store catalogue price (like they weren't making any profit with those two prices either - NOT). Try it with a box of pencils too ... the same thing will happen. But guess what? That particular store were the lowest bidders/best suppliers when it came to SO set prices - that's why they now hold the NSO.

Canadian business' make a fortune off supplying federal entities. The law allows them to. And, as soon as a Canadian business lists one of their products up with PWGSC in consideration of the bidding process ... the price they ante it up as is always more than what that product's cost is today off their shelf. Corporate greed - it's the Canadian way.

I'm not sure if MEC bid on the SPS or not, but if they did -- they obviously had a higher price listed for their contractual obligations to be met OR they did not have the best value product (not necessarily the cheapest). This is not unusual.

 

[armyvern]

Which seems to lead to the question: Why didn't they bid on the contract with a better option that met all specifications at less cost?

That is how it works.

Problem is, what the companies inflate their prices to in those bids. Then they bitch and whine when another company ends up winning the contract. So sad says I, perhaps if you'd only inflated your "offered for contract" bid price at a mere 20% over what it costs you like the winning bidder did instead of at 38% -- you'd find yourself with the contract. These companies put a lot of time, effort, and resources into figuring out exactly how high they can list (ie the maximum - not the minimum price) a product up for contract bid at. Sometimes, their greed bites them in the ass. Sometimes, they happen to be the "less" greediest of the greedy.

Such are the facts of life in Federal Procurement - where apparently, buying at inflated contract prices (which could very easily see you buying the exact same item downtown as a civvie for 20% less [although I've seen a desklamp from the NSO as much as 60% cheaper in another store's catalogue]) are a by-product of ensuring CanCon.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Don't we get discounted prices from select stores.  Where I work there are two companies that we order from.  One for paper/pen type stuff and another for tools.  I was under the impression we were more or less restricted to these companies because we had a deal with them and got big discounts.  Have I  been under the wrong impression (which was related to me by QM staff).

 

[armyvern]

Don't we get discounted prices from select stores.  Where I work there are two companies that we order from.  One for paper/pen type stuff and another for tools.  I was under the impression we were more or less restricted to these companies because we had a deal with them and got big discounts.  Have I  been under the wrong impression (which was related to me by QM staff).

Stationary - yes we all have to buy from that company with the NSO. "Big Discounts" ... That's discounts off the "contracted" price, which is still a lot more than what we pay to walk into that store as a civilian and buying the same item. Having to buy from them though has nothing to do with "big discounts" (from the contracted price), you have to buy from them because they have the National Standing Offer (much like a contract) - it's the law.

Even guys using their acquisition cards for LPO have to, by law, purchase any stationary/office supplies/furniture from that same company. A guy using an acquisition card to buy any of the above from any other store (regardless of whether another store is 60% cheaper or not) is BREAKING the law.

 

[customdeluxified]

DRDC, CTS, what ever. Still results in us getting garbage kit. Shut ém down spend the money on something worthwhile. As for the BEW's, I could wear a bucket over my head and my eyes would be protected. Doesn't mean it's good kit. Every single pair of non-issued BEW's I have seen have straight arms so that when they are folded they don't scratch the lenses. Not ours, No matter what you do they end up with scratches right in the centre of the lens. Awesome kit, and the replacement pile of used scratched lenses at QM is great. I think that maybe the people praising the garbage we get issued aren't the ones that have to live in it, and by live in it I don't mean one weekend a month or during your PWT. I mean Live in it. I think that the biggest problem is that we are trying to creat kit for everyone, which being the army and all is completely understandable. The problem is that for the few that are outside the wire the regular stuff just isn't good enough. Maybe we should leave the civilians and bio-whatever scientists out of it and let the troops on the ground figure it out. As for the oral aperature target thing, uh, yeah.

 

[aesop081]

DRDC, CTS, what ever.

Thats funny. Next time, try and have you facts straight when arguing against something.

As for the oral aperature target thing, uh, yeah.

You agree or just don't understand ?

 

[armyvern]

DRDC, CTS, what ever. Still results in us getting garbage kit. Shut ém down spend the money on something worthwhile. As for the BEW's, I could wear a bucket over my head and my eyes would be protected. Doesn't mean it's good kit. Every single pair of non-issued BEW's I have seen have straight arms so that when they are folded they don't scratch the lenses. Not ours, No matter what you do they end up with scratches right in the centre of the lens. Awesome kit, and the replacement pile of used scratched lenses at QM is great. I think that maybe the people praising the garbage we get issued aren't the ones that have to live in it, and by live in it I don't mean one weekend a month or during your PWT. I mean Live in it. I think that the biggest problem is that we are trying to creat kit for everyone, which being the army and all is completely understandable. The problem is that for the few that are outside the wire the regular stuff just isn't good enough. Maybe we should leave the civilians and bio-whatever scientists out of it and let the troops on the ground figure it out. As for the oral aperature target thing, uh, yeah.

Still speaking I see?

You have much to learn about federal purchasing requirements before you keep "ill informedly" slamming people based on your lack of knowledge.

DRDC, CTS et al are federal entities. As are YOU in the CF. Shut them and the procurement system down? That would take an act of parliament my friend. It's the law -- we just get to follow it. You are still shitting in the wrong spot.

When it's taxpayers money that's being spent - YOU don't get the choice, you get contracted stuff. It is the way it is and you're bitching about the people and entities forced (that's right "forced" - it's not like they have a choice in the matter even if OTS "item X" is better) to work within that legal contracting requirement for federal kit.

You want to run downtown and buy civ gear -- you'll just have to keep doing it with your own money. With taxpayers money, there's a process that needs to be followed both inside the CF in concert with other federal departments buying via "contract" on our behalfs such as PWGSC.

It's nice to dream, but it's not reality.

 

[Ham Sandwich]

A happy middle ground may be a limited annual clothing allowance and a list of approved off the shelf manufacturers. That should be enough to accomodate the "everyone is different, and everybody's kit must therefore be different" camp, while also keeping a tight leash on what people buy/use. Or failing that, just have the list and let ppl spend their own money if they want to. Just a thought. 

 

[armyvern]

A happy middle ground may be a limited annual clothing allowance and a list of approved off the shelf manufacturers. That should be enough to accomodate the "everyone is different, and everybody's kit must therefore be different" camp, while also keeping a tight leash on what people buy/use. Or failing that, just have the list and let ppl spend their own money if they want to. Just a thought. 

Allowances (such as footwear allowances) have been discussed in threads on the site before.

It's a grand idea, but one must take into consideration that each and every piece of kit that you want to make it onto that "authorized list" MUST be put through the exact same process to determine it's "ballistic" capabilities, it's compliance IAW with mil specs etc. It'll have to go through all the rig-a-ma-rolls of "certification" and acceptance by the system before anyone is "officially" going to "authorize" it's compliance and use by Canadian soldiers by placing it on a list of "authorized OTS".

There are a few OTS items currently undergoing trials with the above suggestion in mind, but again - it's not the CF that ultimately gets to decide. It's a world of policy and obtaining the proper "authority" and consent to go outside the system like this. It's a RARITY and the capability to to meet and obtain approval for "authorized to purchase outside of law [ie: outside of federal contract]" is extremely limited and hard to come by. Authority for that flows from the respective CF sections and outwards of the CF and onto TB and PWGSC. If they say "no" - then it's "no" (such as was the case for footwear allowances). Contracting law is contracting law; like I said before, it would take an Act of Parliament to change it (in this case, to change the Treasury Board Act and the Financial Administration Act).

You want to effect change to those Acts - you'll have to talk to your local political representatives and get them involved, and all your friends and fellow soldiers too -- it's just a small CF in the big world of Canadian vote counts and taxpayers money being spent.

 

[aesop081]

Allowances (such as footwear allowances) have been discussed in threads on the site before.

Oh i dont know about that. 111 pages in this thread and it was the first i have heard of it.

;D

 

[armyvern]

Oh i dont know about that. 111 pages in this thread and it was the first i have heard of it.

;D

Freak.

 

[George Wallace]

Oh i dont know about that. 111 pages in this thread and it was the first i have heard of it.

;D

I think it may have been mentioned back when you were in Hawaii.  ;D

 

[KevinB]

Frostnipper Elf -- the issues I have are trying to tell me that my weapon manipulation methods are wrong -- as they seem to be reading out of the pam (right hand cock etc.) not what is done or taught anymore.

 

[Armymedic]

Frostnipper Elf -- the issues I have are trying to tell me that my weapon manipulation methods are wrong -- as they seem to be reading out of the pam (right hand cock etc.) not what is done or taught anymore.

The nerve of yourself. Like you are some sort of weapon expert? Of course those guys know how things are done.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I normally don't post anything on this site because it usually results in  me getting jacked up, but here it goes. I did the trials on the piece of garbage TV and it along with the other vests that were pretty much identical were all crap. We just picked the one that was the least crappy. They didn't want to hear any suggestions on how to improve the vest as they already had the one they wanted picked out. We actually had to spend hours trying to convince them to put velcro on the mag pouches. They didn't want to do that because they thought it would be too loud. They're mag pouches, if yoiu are changing mags I think the bad guy knows that you are there. The bottom line is that the vest is dangerous. I will be ordering a rig that holds more than 4 mags and has pouches that are secure and accessable. As for the TF RSM. If he don't like it charge me and send me home I am not going to spend time in the most dangerous place on the planet wearing a vest that can get me killed.  Same goes for Balistic eye wear, boots and gloves. If I can afford a better product that increases the chances of me coming home in one piece then I am going to do it. As for the DRDC people Lets just get rid of them and use the money to order kit that is already out there. They have been churning out complete garbage ever since they started. Somebody name a good piece of kit that has been issued lately, and for the sake of all things good don't say the rucksack, I got , it sucks.  I guess you could say the new gortex raingear, but it still isn't that good.

You have a total of 3 posts. I am curious on how you usually get jacked up? The lonly one that you got jacked up for was for trolling comments that the site owner called you out on. I wait eagerly for your reply.

Milnet.Ca Staff