Transition to Municipal Police Force

[Booter]

Yup- and this applies to every level of policing, I think. Your good fraud investigator might not be too keen on traffic enforcement. Your front line member might be brilliant at spotting drug trafficking indicia, but have zero interest in being a warrant writer. The member who just can’t deal with mental health calls might have a fantastic eye for forensic evidence. It takes all sorts.

It really does. And as technology and sophistication grows- the strategy of the force- as late as the 90s- of anyone can do anything- is no Longer useful. Even if we re slow to give it up.

I should not have talented software engineers where I am….

 

[brihard]

It really does. And as technology and sophistication grows- the strategy of the force- as late as the 90s- of anyone can do anything- is no Longer useful. Even if we re slow to give it up.

I should not have talented software engineers where I am….

I bet there are six or eight units hardly anyone’s heard of who’d kill to have them- but they’re not releasable.

 

[Booter]

I bet there are six or eight units hardly anyone’s heard of who’d kill to have them- but they’re not releasable.

And in the end- we ll lose them to municipal agencies…

And hire some consultants about why we can’t fill positions

 

[brihard]

And in the end- we ll lose them to municipal agencies…

And hire some consultants about why we can’t fill positions

The whole profession needs more nerds who want to play for Team Canada. We need to either take the badge off a pedestal and better embrace granting peace officer status to civilian with technical/professional skills, or we need to accept that you can make five different recruits into badged cops, and that can mean five very different things the day they’re done training.

I think policing could also learn from CAF and do a better job of investing in its people and paying to acquire needed skills through training/education in exchange for contractual terms of service.

 

[RedFive]

The really pricy stuff?? (I'm assuming you mean high cost density for a specific capability?)

What would be an example if the really pricy stuff? (In the context of what the RCMP brings to the table)

Off the top of my head, air services, emergency response teams, underwater recovery, explosives disposal, forensic identification. All integrated (multiple cities footing the bill and available on an as needed/when available basis) and/or provincially funded where I am.

 

[brihard]

Off the top of my head, air services, emergency response teams, underwater recovery, explosives disposal, forensic identification. All integrated (multiple cities footing the bill and available on an as needed/when available basis) and/or provincially funded where I am.

Major Crimes, if outside of IHIT territory and you have the occasional (highly resource intensive) murder. Public order teams, especially for some of the protests that spring up around natural resource development.

 

[Booter]

That’s actually a very good point Brihard for ease of conversation. The majority of small to medium municipal, tribal and regional forces beyond Ont and the integrated BC models do not have the ability beyond general investigations.

Even ones with plain clothes investigators depend on RCMP on the complex and murder realms- those services would all require provincial investment is creating either training or coordination to fill the gaps.

That’s the easiest capability to demonstrate a need from- there are very large regional forces that depend on the RCMP for all their specialized services. They’ll have some very general specialists that basically know where their expertise stops and when they need to bring in Mounties. That exists almost everywhere in some fashion- that all needs to be filled with the contract retraction going on.

 

[Booter]

Even more than that there are two large forces im familiar with that are regional whos models actually depend on them bordering RCMP jurisdictions. Their budgeting and success depends on being able to bill for use on a significant amount of specialized services that would take millions to develop and realize through people, training, and equipment

 

[Booter]

The last time I saw the workflow for cracking cellphones it was almost 50 percent outside agencies too- they have a general guy who uses software but once it has a certain level- that I know nothing about- they needed access to the things RCMP has.

All those very niche things need filling.and they are expensive.

 

[brihard]

The last time I saw the workflow for cracking cellphones it was almost 50 percent outside agencies too- they have a general guy who uses software but once it has a certain level- that I know nothing about- they needed access to the things RCMP has.

All those very niche things need filling.and they are expensive.

Yeah, smartphones and encryption are something the RCMP host the highest degree of capability in within the law enforcement world. Having the National Security mandate probably doesn’t hurt in terms of being able to fund that.

 

[brihard]

On a related tangent- the city of Grande Prairie, AB also seems to be steadily progressing towards a municipal option. They have a chief hired, and their website states an intent to start hiring both experienced and new officers this fall. With a population of around 70k, I’d guesstimate they’ll be looking for something like 100-120 officers all in. GP is one of the bellweqthers for transition away from RCMP. They’ll have the benefit of watching and learning all the Surrey shenanigans. Attracting applicants may be tough, but GP probably has the ability to pay for this to work, particularly with the province assisting them with grant funding.

Grande Prairie Police Service

www.gppolice.com

 

[Booter]

It’s moving along. They’ve hired their superintendents and are looking for their first crop of NCOs to start some training and equipment stuff.

They can be successful. But their cost estimates are too low but it will work eventually.

I don’t anticipate the Surrey thing over again.

 

[childs56]

It’s moving along. They’ve hired their superintendents and are looking for their first crop of NCOs to start some training and equipment stuff.

They can be successful. But their cost estimates are too low but it will work eventually.

I don’t anticipate the Surrey thing over again.

The province is behind them all the way in support. If this works well then they will expand their provincial Police program idea.

 

[brihard]

The province is behind them all the way in support. If this works well then they will expand their provincial Police program idea.

I think we’ll see the Alberta Sherrif continue to expand in size and mandate. They already exist as a nucleus with a lot of the basic back end infrastructure.

 

[Fabius]

Saskatchewan is also in the early stages of standing up the Saskatchewan Marshals Service. I could see that slowly expanding similar to the Alberta Sheriffs and eventually being in position to serve as a provincial police force replacing the RCMP.

 

[childs56]

Saskatchewan is also in the early stages of standing up the Saskatchewan Marshals Service. I could see that slowly expanding similar to the Alberta Sheriffs and eventually being in position to serve as a provincial police force replacing the RCMP.

Alberta Sheriffs have been expanding their roles here as times goes by.

 

[Booter]

When I see any of those services able to do their mandate without any assistance from the RCMP I’ll start thinking that way.

The Alberta Sheriffs still don’t have enough people to do all their main court related function, and they are the most fleshed out sheriffs service in western Canada.

 

[lenaitch]

They’ll have some very general specialists that basically know where their expertise stops and when they need to bring in Mounties.

One of the problems that existed in Ontario wasn't so much the operational folks recognizing the need to call in the OPP (or even another large municipal service) was the political willingness of their command. After the changes to Police Services Act in the mid-1990s downloaded policing costs to the municipalities, those that already had or wanting to create a municipal service had to show that they were 'all singin'/all dancin' services to their civilian leadership and taxpayers to justify their existence. Some wouldn't call for help until it was far too late, some even never. The OPP has no 'white knight' authority - they have to be either asked or directed. The Minster or local Crown can direct, but never do.

Until costs were downloaded, most municipal governments never had to deal with such matters. I recall one small municipal department who sent one member on a containment course then proudly announced to their Board that they now had a hostage team. In another case that I was involved in involving a homicide, they had to wait until the chief went on vacation before the 2 i/c could call us in; the chief hated the OPP and wouldn't ask for assistance even knowing that they were clearly in over their heads.

From what little I know of it, I am also intrigued by the 'Quebec model'. I have no clue of their municipal/provincial funding arrangements. It is often easier to have a prescriptive public policy when it is accompanied with bags of money. To say that police service X is responsible to assist other services implies that they have the funding and staffing to do that. For the smaller provinces such as Atlantic Canada, some services, such as 911/call taking could be absorbed at the provincial level and more operational matters such as forensics, major case management, etc. centred on existing large municipal services (again, provided they are funded and staffed for it). In addition, the costing has to be addressed by policy. A small community would be loathe to call for expensive assistance if they know they are going to get stuck with a bill.

This is similar to the historic role of the London Metropolitan Police. Even though there are basically and municipal police service, they have historically had both extra-territorial and even international responsibilities. Most of that is gone now but certain elements still exist.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Saskatchewan is also in the early stages of standing up the Saskatchewan Marshals Service. I could see that slowly expanding similar to the Alberta Sheriffs and eventually being in position to serve as a provincial police force replacing the RCMP.

I suppose they used "Marshal" as a title (instead of sheriff) because they didn't want their organization abbreviation to sound like air escaping SSS. And Alberta Sheriffs are a "Branch" vice being a "Service" for an obvious reason.

 

[brihard]

When I see any of those services able to do their mandate without any assistance from the RCMP I’ll start thinking that way.

The Alberta Sheriffs still don’t have enough people to do all their main court related function, and they are the most fleshed out sheriffs service in western Canada.

Sure. I think what I and others are suggesting is that they’re just nuclei. If, say, Sherrif we’re to start paying like the Mounties do, and expanded to more policing roles, they would likely attract more people who want to fully be police, not the more limited role they currently play. My point’s more that a scale-up is likely easier than a cold start.