Trudeau Popularity - or not (various polling, etc.)

[Remius]

I don't see being proud of being Canadian, and proud of our Canadian heritage, as nationalism in the pejorative sense of the word. Can you expand on what some of the uglier sides of nationalism you mean? Who is being marginalized by me being proud of being Canadian?

We hear about colonialism non-stop. It's obnoxious and just the du jour thing to complain about.

There is a distinction between patriotism and nationalism.

"Patriotism" vs. "Nationalism": What's The Difference?

Patriotism and nationalism both involve pride in one's country, but one has a much more positive connotation than the other. Do you know which is which?

www.dictionary.com

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I don't see being proud of being Canadian, and proud of our Canadian heritage, as nationalism in the pejorative sense of the word.

Neither do I. I see two sides who have weaponised it as a cudgel to beat opposition to their beliefs.

Can you expand on what some of the uglier sides of nationalism you mean?

Taking pride in one's nation is not inherently ugly. Being wilfully blind to it's past transgressions, indifferent to it's existing systemic flaws, and demanding unquestioning loyalty of your citizens...well that is nationalism/facism to the largest degree.

Do I think your average Canadian is there? Hell no. Is it something to educate and be wary of? Yes. Does it become a raison d'etre to tear down monuments and indoctrinate people out of a national pride mindset? Absolutely not.

who is being marginalized by me being proud of being Canadian?

Absolutely no one. What leads to people being marginalized is a culture that puts more stock in how being Canadian makes them "feel" than actually fixing the problems we face as citizens in the day to day. Those marginalized folks can be any flavour of Canadian who's needs aren't met by a government policy, left or right leaning.

We hear about colonialism non-stop. It's obnoxious and just the du jour thing to complain about.

 Agreed

 

[CBH99]

One key element of that is our Foreign Service, which of late is reported to be a shrunken, demoralized and risk-averse bureaucracy.

So essentially they are like every other part of Canadian society these days - their morale is at an all time low due to an out of control incompetent government.

He's not very popular with NATO either, it seems...

NATO is losing patience with one of its own members — and it’s not who you think​

This week’s summit in Washington will get uncomfortable for Canada as allies press for more cash commitments.


Canada has been dodging its commitment to NATO for a decade. It may not be able to hold out for much longer.

Over the past several years, Ottawa has become an outlier among the 32-member alliance. It has failed to hit domestic military spending goals, has fallen short on benchmarks to fund new equipment and has no plans to get there.

It’s a stance that has frustrated allies far and wide — from the White House to the halls of Congress to capitals all over Europe.

And it’ll be on members’ minds when they gather this week in Washington for the NATO Summit, where they are expected to press Ottawa to come up with the cash while warning that things could get much worse if Donald Trump returns to the White House.

“What’s happening now that everyone is spending more, the fact that the Canadians aren’t even trying has become obvious,” said Max Bergmann, a former State Department arms control official.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/08/nato-summit-canada-commitment-00166648

It's a hard up life these days, bring a useless piece of s**t that accomplishes nothing of benefit to anyone while gliding around the world lecturing about values one doesn't actually have...

If I had to choose to spend a weekend conversing with a rock or Trudeau, I'd honestly take the rock. I'd learn more, my basic expectations would be met, and just in general I think it would be better company.

Perfect example - although I doubt even PP'll change course & go nuke if he becomes PM, no matter how much more he does for defence.

Given the current state of the country's finances, I'm not sure we could actually afford to join the club right now anyway.

It'll take a few years of allowing industries to rebuild themselves, for foreign investment to start coming in again, for the government to shed itself of the massively excess bloat & lean down, etc - before we have any sort of real wiggle room.

And it'll take a few more years of strict and lean government spending to chip away at the debt enough that the annual interest payments don't cripple any discretionary spending we may have otherwise had.


At least with PP, us not joining or being invited to join will be due to the financial constraints we'll be left with once Trudeau is gone, and not because he's seen as a black hole with legs & an unreliable security threat the way Justin is.

(If I were the US, I wouldn't be sharing any nuclear tech or info with China's preferred pick north of the border)

 

[dimsum]

So essentially they are like every other part of Canadian society these days - their morale is at an all time low due to an out of control incompetent government.

It's a hard up life these days, bring a useless piece of s**t that accomplishes nothing of benefit to anyone while gliding around the world lecturing about values one doesn't actually have...

If I had to choose to spend a weekend conversing with a rock or Trudeau, I'd honestly take the rock. I'd learn more, my basic expectations would be met, and just in general I think it would be better company.



Given the current state of the country's finances, I'm not sure we could actually afford to join the club right now anyway.

It'll take a few years of allowing industries to rebuild themselves, for foreign investment to start coming in again, for the government to shed itself of the massively excess bloat & lean down, etc - before we have any sort of real wiggle room.

And it'll take a few more years of strict and lean government spending to chip away at the debt enough that the annual interest payments don't cripple any discretionary spending we may have otherwise had.


At least with PP, us not joining or being invited to join will be due to the financial constraints we'll be left with once Trudeau is gone, and not because he's seen as a black hole with legs & an unreliable security threat the way Justin is.

(If I were the US, I wouldn't be sharing any nuclear tech or info with China's preferred pick north of the border)

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again:

Folks crying for less govt spending should not be surprised if Defence is the first thing on the chopping block.

DND/CAF is a huge line item that no govt has whole-heartedly supported - the procurement in Afghanistan was because the optics of Canadian body bags due to inadequate equipment didn’t look positive to the government of the day. It may have changed but a few years ago on a course, I learned that DND/CAF was the biggest single budget item in the GoC.

So, when govts talk about cutting bloat and costs, they really mean cutting into the DND/CAF’s budget.

 

[DBNSG]

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again:

Folks crying for less govt spending should not be surprised if Defence is the first thing on the chopping block.

DND/CAF is a huge line item that no govt has whole-heartedly supported - the procurement in Afghanistan was because the optics of Canadian body bags due to inadequate equipment didn’t look positive to the government of the day. It may have changed but a few years ago on a course, I learned that DND/CAF was the biggest single budget item in the GoC.

So, when govts talk about cutting bloat and costs, they really mean cutting into the DND/CAF’s budget.

So the Generals should be worried or....

 

[CBH99]

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again:

Folks crying for less govt spending should not be surprised if Defence is the first thing on the chopping block.

DND/CAF is a huge line item that no govt has whole-heartedly supported - the procurement in Afghanistan was because the optics of Canadian body bags due to inadequate equipment didn’t look positive to the government of the day. It may have changed but a few years ago on a course, I learned that DND/CAF was the biggest single budget item in the GoC.

So, when govts talk about cutting bloat and costs, they really mean cutting into the DND/CAF’s budget.

You are 100% right.

(I thought that outside of paying interest on the national debt, Healthcare was the single biggest government expenditure? Followed by paying the salaries of a much expanded federal workforce? But either way, I get what you're saying & don't disagree with you, DND budget is a fairly easy thing to trim without much public push back)

 

[OldSolduer]

maybe getting the heave ho from NATO - or at least put on Recorded Warning - would convince future GoCs to live up to the commitments made.

 

[RedFive]

How about PRB? That seems to be the only thing that gets candidate's attention these days...

 

[Jarnhamar]

Neither do I. I see two sides who have weaponised it as a cudgel to beat opposition to their beliefs.

Ah you got me. When you brought up nationalisim to my comment about being proud of being canadian and our herritage I thought you were implying that was nationalisim. I see what you're saying but think the difference between patriotism and nationalisim is alot shorter for left wingers than you may think. To many, I suspect statements such as 'I'm proud to be Canadian' is heard as a dog whistle for them about first nations genocide, white supremacy, Islamophobia, and whatever else.

Taking pride in one's nation is not inherently ugly. Being wilfully blind to it's past transgressions, indifferent to it's existing systemic flaws, and demanding unquestioning loyalty of your citizens...well that is nationalism/facism to the largest degree.

I'd becarful not to mix being willfully blind and just choosing to acknowledge the past and move on.

I don't see anyone demanding unquestioning loyalty, I do often see asking questions conflated as being racist. And the left loves accusing people of that as we know. Trudeau and his cabinet has made it a standard.

 

[RangerRay]

It wasn’t that long ago that Canadian nationalism was a left wing project. It arose out of a desire to distance us from our British past and American neighbours. It culminated in “beer can” nationalism that was featured in those Molson Canadian ads, which I found really annoying. That motivated me to put provincial flags on my backpack instead of the Maple Leaf. Now it’s gone full post-national.

You never go full post-national.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Is it wrong to expect unquestioned loyalty, within legal parameters, of our soldiers, sailors and airmen? How does that fit in with being nationalist/ facist?

 

[PuckChaser]

Is it wrong to expect unquestioned loyalty, within legal parameters, of our soldiers, sailors and airmen? How does that fit in with being nationalist/ facist?

It is wrong. Unquestioned loyalty to military leaders is essentially the Nuremburg defense that all those SS troops were just following orders. A modern, competent fighting force needs the ability to say no, without fear of retribution, to manifestly unlawful orders.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Is it wrong to expect unquestioned loyalty, within legal parameters, of our soldiers, sailors and airmen? How does that fit in with being nationalist/ facist?

I am loyal to the Crown and what it represents, as stated in our Oath of Allegiance.

Part of that is being a critical thinker when it comes to what His Majesty's Government is asking of me and my soldiers.

Being loyal to Canada and the Crown means being loyal to ALL Canadians and representing their values. Those values often are at odds with one another depending on who is speaking the loudest.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It is wrong. Unquestioned loyalty to military leaders is essentially the Nuremburg defense that all those SS troops were just following orders. A modern, competent fighting force needs the ability to say no, without fear of retribution, to manifestly unlawful orders.

Which is why I said 'within legal parameters'. You left that out. I agree with what you said, but it is not what I was talking about.

"I, do solemnly affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty, King Charles the Third, King of Canada, His heirs and successors according to law.”

An allegiance is “loyalty or commitment of a subordinate to a superior or of an individual to a group or cause”. Synonyms include words such as loyalty, obedience, and devotion.

 

[PuckChaser]

Which is why I said 'within legal parameters'.

That's a cop out qualifier. You can't have unquestioned loyalty and also a caveat about "legal parameters". Military members need loyalty, trust and obedience to function effectively. Unquestioned loyalty as a term is just so loaded and fraught with historical examples of its failure we shouldn't be conflating the two.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That's a cop out qualifier. You can't have unquestioned loyalty and also a caveat about "legal parameters". Military members need loyalty, trust and obedience to function effectively. Unquestioned loyalty as a term is just so loaded and fraught with historical examples of its failure we shouldn't be conflating the two.

What is true allegiance? Is it not what is described in the Oath?

 

[Brad Sallows]

The requirement to disobey manifestly unlawful orders negates any question of absolute loyalty. The suggestion that some sort of abstract interests and values of Canadians ought be respected likewise is subject to moral and ethical tests. There is no absolute interpretation of oaths to the Crown, or any part of government, or any person or people, which can stand. Oaths are mere reminders.

Ultimately an oath is worthless for binding a person inclined to be faithless or opportunistic, and unnecessary - and potentially insulting - for binding a person inclined to be faithful. Most oaths in history have been demanded by rulers incapable of securing their position by simply being decent and just. Then they try to bind others to their own misdeeds by appealing to oaths (honour).

We'd be better off pledging people to the Statement of Defence Ethics, understanding that all authority is always only conditionally lawful, contingent on being itself lawful and ethical and wholly consistent with its principles.

 

[Good2Golf]

Under the PMO bus the Deputy PM goes…

Trudeau says he’s trying to recruit Carney, but declined to say whether he wants Freeland to stay in Finance

The Globe and Mail reported that senior officials in the PMO are concerned about Freeland’s effectiveness in selling the government’s economic message

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[Good2Golf]

…or she wants out to work at WEF and she leaked this to Bob Fife…

 

[QV]

Under the PMO bus the Deputy PM goes…

Trudeau says he’s trying to recruit Carney, but declined to say whether he wants Freeland to stay in Finance

The Globe and Mail reported that senior officials in the PMO are concerned about Freeland’s effectiveness in selling the government’s economic message

www.theglobeandmail.com

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I'm not sure what to make of this article. Some excerpts:

"In that scenario, Ms. Freeland would have been offered the foreign affairs portfolio she held before becoming Finance Minister. Both sources say Ms. Telford in private conversations had high praise for Ms. Freeland as foreign affairs minister when she renegotiated the trilateral free-trade agreement with Mexico and the United States when Donald Trump was president." but other sources suggested Canada was completely blindsided by a US/Mexico deal that threatened to cut out Canada if Canada didn't sign at the last minute and Freeland's surprised reaction on video to the announcement by the US and Mexican reps supports this theory. So what would the high praise be for? Garbage.

Mr. Carney, considered a leadership contender should Mr. Trudeau step down, has said the April budget, which proposed $52.9-billion in new spending, did not put an adequate focus on fostering economic growth. In indirect criticism of Ms. Freeland’s financial stewardship, Mr. Carney warned of the risks of “constant spending” and too much government subsidies, although he also congratulated the Liberals for their investments in housing and AI. Putting Carney in now would give him some seat time before a quick leadership swap ahead of the next election. Which might be the plan.