"Unionizing" the CF (merged)
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NiTz said:
Have you been to a headquarters Bldg lately? ;D
I am a strong supporter of unions-for the reasons they were initially created. However, I agree with some posts that many unions have regressed into a sheltering system for laziness and incompetency among workers. As for the idea of a unionized military, IMO it is a incredibly bad idea.
Not sure if this is true, but I heard that in the Dutch military if a troop refuses to cut his hair in accordance with regulations he simply pays a small monthly 'fine' and keeps his hippie dreadlocks. :
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Very good post Mol-litia. It's exactly my point of view.. maybe the union in my workplace gives me a bad idea of all the unions? Anyways, the thing about the dutch army is ridiculous.. it's very bad for the look of the army, and it doesn't look professional at all.
Cheers!
Cheers!
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I don't think the enemy is going to respect your union rights -"solidarity forever" is not a universal maxim. Also, unionization inevitably leads to more contracting out and more micro management, which fuels more unrest in the workplace.
The formation of a professional organization with it's own distinct ethos and creed for duly qualified personnel with the skill, expertise and wherewithall is something I have long advocated.
The formation of a professional organization with it's own distinct ethos and creed for duly qualified personnel with the skill, expertise and wherewithall is something I have long advocated.
Brad Sallows
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If you lot ever decide to do the union thing, at least keep this one important fact in mind: "management" is not the officers, it is the government and people of Canada. All of you - NCMs and officers - are in the same boat. I think some people have a misconception that "management"="officers", but the officer corps isn't going to spring for more money to meet the demands of the union - it has no money to spring.
Acorn said:
I think admitting that the knowledge is unverified is a lot more prudent than posting it as an implied fact...
Although in light of the fact that the Dutch no longer use conscripts I can see that there are likely no more 'longhairs' in the Dutch military. (Just unionized clowns who refuse dangerous missions by calling their union reps!)
So you HAVE seen longhaired Dutch troops? Would you care to elaborate? Was the barracks room telegraph correct in that they only had to pay a monthly stipend to keep their curly locks or was the Sergeant blowing smoke up my ass?
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Whiskey 601 said:
It would appear that since 1968 we have, watered down, turned insideout and back, the CAF's to a point where the Good Order and Military Discipline seems to be disappearing. A Union would certainty put the icing on the cake.
Example; CPO to Ordinary Seaman, Jones I want that Head scrubbed down.
Ordinary Seaman to CPO, Sorry Chief thats not my job description.
Chopper Pilot to Crew, Okay fellows lets get this show on the road.
Crew to Chopper Pilot, Sorry Sir, but according to Union rules we are not required
use or operate any equipment that may be antiquaint ed
or pose a threat to our health or safety.
2/Lt. to Platoon Sgt. Sargeant, take four and flank right of that MG Pillbox.
Platoon Sgt. to 2/Lt. Sir, are you out of your f****** mind, I'm going to have
clear this with our Shop Steward, this order could get
us killed.
Slightly exaggerated, perhaps, but I think we all get the message.
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Just before we start trashing the Dutch, I'd like to point out that I was on a course with Dutch soldiers while overseas and I don't find the description of "lazy union sop" very accurate. These Dutchmen were very fit and capable soldiers - they were all from an Infantry regiment ("Princess Irene" or something) and I know one has went onto a Dutch SOC unit. We were bugging them about their union and they told us that the whole union thing isn't taken very seriously by the "tip of the spear" types in the Dutch Army; they told me it was mainly something that was used by soldiers, mainly Rear Ech types, to sob when they felt life as a soldier was unfair (maybe akin to our Ombudsman?).
That doesn't surprise me at all, Infanteer. I was having trouble trying to wrap my head around the concept of a military union in a nation that had been conquored by the Nazis. Good to hear that us 'pointy stick' types tend to think alike regardless of our nationality.
I can't trash the Dutch army though; the Netherlands still spends more of their GNP on their army than we do... :crybaby:
I can't trash the Dutch army though; the Netherlands still spends more of their GNP on their army than we do... :crybaby:
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Can only find some old information, MS Encarta94 says about Dutch Defense: "All males must serve from 14 to 17 months in the armed forces. In the late 1980s, conscripts made up almost half the 103,600 members of the Dutch armed forces." In a mandatory service situation having something like a union or a more powerful ombudsmen isn't such a bad idea. There would also in general tend to be a large difference in attitudes in the volunteer longer serving members compared to those in for the fairly short mandatory service period.
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Unions exist because leadership fails. Period.
If you doubt me, check out successful, happy non-union firms in this country and see what makes the difference: leadership. We could go on for hours about the abysmal lack of any kind of leadership in the civvy workplace (including, I'm sorry to say, the protective services...) but I think I've made my point.
All the arguments against unions posted here are good ones. My grandfather was a skilled machinist in the aircraft industry for years, and was a union man. When approached about the possibility of being a shop steward, he declined. He told me that in his opinion the union had long ago lost sight of what it was created for, and was more interested in looking after its power than anything else.
Besides, I challenge you to find an organization the size of the CF that offers as many benefits, protections, and is as hard to fire anyone from as the CF. As well, a form of "protection" exists in the WO/Senior NCO class, who have no real equivalent in the civiilian workplace.
My guess is that this supposed "30%" of people who want a union contains very few Army people, and even fewer combat arms. It is probably made of those whiners who joined the military as "a job" and don't like being told what to do when they would rather just sit on their asses.
Mo-litia: I don't know where you get the basis for your crack about HQs, but I've spent a few years in units (both Res and Reg) and in HQs and IMHO overall the number of people working late, taking work home or coming in on weekends is much higher in HQs than it is in units. Enjoy your time in battalion: when it's over, it's over.
Cheers.
If you doubt me, check out successful, happy non-union firms in this country and see what makes the difference: leadership. We could go on for hours about the abysmal lack of any kind of leadership in the civvy workplace (including, I'm sorry to say, the protective services...) but I think I've made my point.
All the arguments against unions posted here are good ones. My grandfather was a skilled machinist in the aircraft industry for years, and was a union man. When approached about the possibility of being a shop steward, he declined. He told me that in his opinion the union had long ago lost sight of what it was created for, and was more interested in looking after its power than anything else.
Besides, I challenge you to find an organization the size of the CF that offers as many benefits, protections, and is as hard to fire anyone from as the CF. As well, a form of "protection" exists in the WO/Senior NCO class, who have no real equivalent in the civiilian workplace.
My guess is that this supposed "30%" of people who want a union contains very few Army people, and even fewer combat arms. It is probably made of those whiners who joined the military as "a job" and don't like being told what to do when they would rather just sit on their asses.
Mo-litia: I don't know where you get the basis for your crack about HQs, but I've spent a few years in units (both Res and Reg) and in HQs and IMHO overall the number of people working late, taking work home or coming in on weekends is much higher in HQs than it is in units. Enjoy your time in battalion: when it's over, it's over.
Cheers.
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For you info. only, the union is very costly too. I pay 31.25$ A WEEK for union dues! It was 18.45$ a couple of years ago but some clowns in quebec city decided to go out with signs for 8 months, and we had to pay for them and thats worse : we'll have to pay this until the loan is cleared. But we don't know the amount of the loan.. it's ridiculous. So, union dues, placed on a annual basis, now cost me 1625$ a year. : awful
Cheers!
Nitz
awfulCheers!
Nitz
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At least you can claim union dues on taxes. I wish compulsory "club memberships" (mess dues) were treated that way.
Infanteer's experience with the Dutch is much the same as mine. I found they can be very agressive troops. As well, a Dutch Sgt Maj I worked with for a few years explained to me that the union is more like a professional association, and was originally put in place to prevent the abuse of conscripts and improve the overall QOL of the troops. It's mandate still remains as such.
I have no idea whether they paid a monthly "fee" to be allowed to grow their hair. I do remember seeing some of them in the early '80s in Germany, and there was a fair representation of long-haried soldiers.
Acorn
Infanteer's experience with the Dutch is much the same as mine. I found they can be very agressive troops. As well, a Dutch Sgt Maj I worked with for a few years explained to me that the union is more like a professional association, and was originally put in place to prevent the abuse of conscripts and improve the overall QOL of the troops. It's mandate still remains as such.
I have no idea whether they paid a monthly "fee" to be allowed to grow their hair. I do remember seeing some of them in the early '80s in Germany, and there was a fair representation of long-haried soldiers.
Acorn
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Acorn said:
Incorporate yourself and claim the dues as business expenses, along with your computer and internet connection to view army.ca!![professional development and training expense].
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Acorn said:
I have my Mess Dues receipt marked Mess Assessment. I've been claiming it for years as Professional Dues and never been questioned and have always had it accepted. Maybe I'm just lucky.
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Ref Dutch soldiers: I worked with a tank platoon in Bosnia in 2000, and we asked about the hair deal (most of them had hair shorter than the average Canadian soldier). The sgt said that they sign some form of agreement that they won't embarrass the Royal Dutch Army while serving overseas, and having "unmilitary" style of hair falls under that. They were extremely good soldiers, and I would work with them over US, UK or any other soldiers. Germans were also very good. Most of the Dutch soldiers (again, soldiers, not REMF's) basically mocked the union idea.
Mess dues: When I mentioned claiming them once when I had my taxes done by H & R Block, they said that you can't, and since they will back you if you are audited, I would go with them on that.
A little while back there was some clown who sent an email around the DIN wanting to start up some "association" to protect CF members from "The Man". I could only fathom a guess as who would be the President of this "association". Hmmmm. I could also see the incessant (moreso than now, which staggers the imagination) whinging about how shitty we are treated (3 meals a day in the field and on course, a paycheck GUARANTEED every 2 weeks, usually 4 and a half day workweeks (less if you count sports afternoons, Tp Leaders hours, mess meetings, etc, etc). Yeah, I could get this kind of money on civvy street with a grade 12 education. Anybody who suggests forming a union in the CF should be shot with a ball of their own shit, and be forced to work in a minimum wage job for a month, and then see what they think about forming a union, which would only suck out "association" or union dues out of us, for nothing in return (I somehow couldn't see us going on strike, so strike pay is out.....).
As mentioned, we already have an Ombudsman, so it's not like we're some sweatshop, pumping out goods for Kathie Lee Gifford or anything. And frankly, I don't think I would be able to restrain my rage if one of my troops threatened to go to the "shop steward" when I told him to do his job :threat:
Al
Mess dues: When I mentioned claiming them once when I had my taxes done by H & R Block, they said that you can't, and since they will back you if you are audited, I would go with them on that.
A little while back there was some clown who sent an email around the DIN wanting to start up some "association" to protect CF members from "The Man". I could only fathom a guess as who would be the President of this "association". Hmmmm. I could also see the incessant (moreso than now, which staggers the imagination) whinging about how shitty we are treated (3 meals a day in the field and on course, a paycheck GUARANTEED every 2 weeks, usually 4 and a half day workweeks (less if you count sports afternoons, Tp Leaders hours, mess meetings, etc, etc). Yeah, I could get this kind of money on civvy street with a grade 12 education. Anybody who suggests forming a union in the CF should be shot with a ball of their own shit, and be forced to work in a minimum wage job for a month, and then see what they think about forming a union, which would only suck out "association" or union dues out of us, for nothing in return (I somehow couldn't see us going on strike, so strike pay is out.....).
As mentioned, we already have an Ombudsman, so it's not like we're some sweatshop, pumping out goods for Kathie Lee Gifford or anything. And frankly, I don't think I would be able to restrain my rage if one of my troops threatened to go to the "shop steward" when I told him to do his job :threat:
Al
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