• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

"Unionizing" the CF (merged)

Yes-it's already against Federal law, and military law. Military law is empowered by the NDA, which is the law of Canada. IIRC attempts at unionization are referred to as "forming a combination".

Anyway, it's a bad idea. IMHO unionization is the result of a situation in which leadership has utterly failed (at all levels...) and there are no institutional protections for people at lower levels or the defense of pay and benefits. This is is simply not the case in our military. While we have certainly experienced some disgracefully bad leadership in the recent past, our leadership today, overall, is as good as most and much, much better than many, especially with the newer, more op-focused senior officers we are now seeing in the Army such as Gen Hillier, Gen Natynczyk, Gen Devlin, etc. And as for protection of people at lower levels: sorry--a Canadian soldier is just about the best-paid, best taken care of,  best protected and hardest to fire of any of his kind that I know of. Overall, we have it pretty good: unionization would be pointless, divisive, and unnecesary.

Cheers.
 
I used the search tool, and found little on the topic, but after doing an overseas tour, I have a couple questions I'm hoping some of the old guard can answer.  For starters, I never even knew such a thing was possible, how can an Army be unionized?  Apparently the Dutch Army is unionized and I'm just curious;

1. - Can a unionized Army go on strike?

2. - If they can (and did) would soldiers they have on overseas missions stop their work & return home?

Personally, I think it's kind of an oxymoron to have an Army thats unionized. Would that not hinder the operational effectiveness of an Army?  Anyhow, I'm just curious to see some feedback from some guys with more wisdom and experience in this matter.  As I said earlier, I did a search and found very little, so I don't mean to bring up a topic that has already been bantered about, but I'd like to get more opinions and thoughts on the matter.
 
I would suspect that in any unionized army, the requirement to particpate in the army's operations would remain an essential task that could not be abdicated.

The union element probably fills the roles of such things as we have embedded in the Ombudsman, the grievance system, the tying of our pay rates to the Public Service (thus 'benefitting' from their union negotiations) as well as possibly providing access to assisting officers and conflict resolution, both of which we also have mechanisms in place for.
 
LOL

A unionized army could not be told to get up in the morning just "strongly advised" ;D
 
The police are unionized, but cannot shirk their duties as they qualify as an emergency service. I imagine, as Michael O'Leary pointed out, that "striking" by the army would be dealt with largely as it is with the police - they grieve by other means.
 
Combat operations will only be 8 hours in length. There will be a grace period of 2 hours, where the Employer may require you to work overtime. You will be paid at time and a half and then after the 2 hours, double time, and so on and so on. Please see Collective Agreement for clarification.

Combat operations over 10 hours total will be immediately suspended so that relief in place may take place and fresh troops brought forward. Upon relief taking place, there will be a 15 minute set up time allocated to each soldier, so they may prepare themselves for operations to resume.

Any questions please be sure to contact your shop steward or chappel chair. :dontpanic:

 
This question came up in the seventies and, I believe, originated with one of the public service unions. It went nowhere as there were a number of unanswered questions, such as the membership. Should it be restricted to non-management and supervisory, which leaves out officers, WOs and NCOs, or all ranks? The big killer was that the members would pay dues (which was suspected as being behind the suggestion) but could not strike, work to rule or any of the other job action associated with unionized labour. And, could NDHQ lock out the troops?
 
Not sure how many will concur, but of the European armies I've dealt with the Dutch are among the best - union or not.

Acorn
 
Glorified Ape said:
The police are unionized, but cannot shirk their duties as they qualify as an emergency service. I imagine, as Michael O'Leary pointed out, that "striking" by the army would be dealt with largely as it is with the police - they grieve by other means.

This is true, striking impossible!
 
Police forces will conduct a "work to rule" campaign that, although they will respond to emergencies, they will not conduct routine work, such as vandalism investigations, traffic duty etc.

The Dutch Union system is rather bitter sweet.  I got to work quite extensively in Kabul over my first month there with a Dutch platoon Commander who had been in Bosnia at the same time I was. (we only meet on missions ;) )

Their pay rate etc is negotiated by the unions.  Their unions do also have a grievance procedure.  However, like our military, there are some gung-ho soldiers and some not.  Unfortunately, many of the policies that flow out from the union are to appease the masses, and have a less than optimised effect on the soldier at the sharp end.

I hope the following is not too confusing...

One of their issues that they are dealing with now (as I understand it, and I may have learned it wrong from my Dutch colleague) is that the union and military have to agree on their overtime.

A soldier there is paid for a 9 hour day.  For every hour a Dutch soldier works overtime, ie on exercise, he is entitled to either another hour's overtime pay, or an equitable amount of time off.  I don't think that it is time and a half, but I will use that in this example.  So he works a 18 hour day because he is preparing for ATI (the Dutch must have those).  He gets paid for his 9 hours and banks the other 9 overtime, to be paid out as 13.5 hours, or 9 hours off.

The military will decide, based upon its requirements whether to grant that soldier that day off.  The union decides, based upon its commitment of man-hours to the military whether the soldier gets the time off.  In essence, once ATI is over, the unit is not doing anything for a couple of weeks, the soldier can take a day off.

However, the union must commit X number of calendar days worth of work to the Dutch Army.  Despite that the soldier worked 2 days' worth of hours, it is only counted as one calendar day.  So the union will crank out its formula, and check its sheets to ensure that if this soldier is given the day off, it will not put the union in the red as far as man days go.  However, just to be safe, it will be denied.  To make this more confusing, the man days ratios are based upon rank.

Often, the soldiers will get the time off, but the SrNCOs and Officers will be left getting overtime pay.  That does not sound to bad, but in the Netherlands, military overtime is counted as separate from pay, as an allowance, so it is taxed at the highest level it can be in the Netherlands.  So the officer would go home with less money than he would have, had he just taken the day off.

But about unions, I am sure it brings other good things to the Dutch. :)


 
Bumped with the latest from Michel Drapeau & Co. ....
On Jan. 16, 2015, in a six-one ruling, the Supreme Court of Canada extended the freedom of association provision in the Charter of Rights to permit members of the RCMP to form a professional association. This association will engage into collective bargaining efforts, and address long-standing issues, mostly related to service conditions, grievances, and consultations on workplace issues. This leaves the Canadian Armed Forces as the only workplace in Canada where the constitutional right of freedom of association is not authorized.

Up until 10 days ago, one reason for excluding members of the RCMP from exercising their right of association was a recognition that loyalty to superiors was of greater importance than loyalty to fellow officers. This is no longer true. RCMP management can no longer refuse associations to have a voice in collective bargaining, which will enable members in the collective sense to meet management at the table on more equal terms.

Similarly, the strongest argument against permitting members of the CAF to the right to form an association is that it may compromise the core values of discipline and operational effectiveness. This suspicion is unfounded.

(....)

Working models

Sweden and Germany currently have functioning independent military associations. In Germany, the Deutscher Bundeswehr Verband was created in 1956, and has approximately 200,000 members—three times the size of Canada’s entire Regular Force. The Deutscher Bundeswehr Verband is financed by members’ fees and they employ their own advisory staff.

Another successful model is the European Organisation of Military Associations (EUROMIL), which was founded in 1972. EUROMIL is a conglomerate of more than 42 associations from over 24 EU countries representing approximately 500,000 military members! The mission of EUROMIL is: “Representing human rights, fundamental freedoms and professional interests of military personnel in Europe,” including the improvement of the living and working conditions of military personnel and the application of and correct implementation of EU social legislation for military personnel.

In Spain, a constitutional court ruled in 2000 that members of their armed forces had a constitutional right to participate in bodies representing their social and economic interests, provided these bodies did not intend to engage in industrial action.

In the U.S., there already exists a large number of military professional associations and societies.


A matter of rights

In Canada, there are many areas where the Canadian military fails to ensure that the rights of its members are protected or respected in accordance with traditional Charter values. Some of these include:

Grievances: The average time for a grievance to be determined at the initial authority level, currently, is more than 250 days. The statutory time limit is four months. Hence, time and, again, the military are letting down CAF members, when they are exercising the only right available to them to challenge a decision or omission by the chain of command. The time to have a grievance heard at the final authority level is typically measured in years, rather than months, or days, as should be expected. These grievances are mostly left to collect dust on the desk of the CDS.

Career Administrative Review:  Any soldier can face a career administrative review or be removed from command on very short notice. A negative result may be career-ending, which has lifelong reputational, professional, and financial consequences. This process may be engaged while the member is serving abroad where he or she has no access to support mechanisms. Worse, under current regulations, the member cannot act through counsel or a representative to ensure that their rights are protected. On the other side of the equation, the CAF has readily available access to JAG lawyers. 

Harassment: A soldier who wishes to file a complaint of harassment is compelled to report such a complaint through their chain of command even though the alleged offenders may actually be fellow soldiers serving within the chain of command.  Again, he or she cannot, as any other ordinary Canadians would under the circumstances, instruct counsel—or their association—to represent them during these procedures.

Code of Service Discipline: Approximately 2,000 soldiers—or one in every 34 Regular Force members—faces a summary trial each year. These disciplinary proceedings, which are heard by that soldier’s commanding officer, could lead to a sentence with ‘true penal consequences’ such as incarceration, demotion, a large fine, or a reprimand. A summary trial conviction may also result in a criminal record.  Amazingly, however, there is no right to legal counsel at a summary trial even if an accused is being tried on Canadian soil, during peacetime. This disciplinary procedure is also devoid of the following:

There are no records of proceeding;

There are no rules of evidence, including non-compellability of the accused to be a witness against himself, self-incrimination, adverse inference from the accused’s silence, or, spousal privilege;

There may be full reliance of hearsay evidence;

There is no right of appeal; and

There is no right to grieve the outcome of a summary trial.

No other Canadian faces such a one-sided penal justice process.

(....)

Full article also attached if link above doesn't work for you, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42).
 
As with anything from M. Drapeau, this needs to be taken with a grain of salt.  In particular, this little nugget:

"In the U.S., there already exists a large number of military professional associations and societies."

The implication is that Canada does not have such things.  This is not correct.  There exist many such groups in Canada as well.  For example, the Logistics Association, the Naval Association of Canada, various and numerous regimental associations, etc.
 
I am sceptical. Many of Mr Drapeau's examples are only "sort of" true, if one treats outlier cases as the rule.  I am curious about a few things:

If the CF was allowed a professional association, how much per month would the mandatory dues be? Would the association be allowed to engage in political activity? Who would the leadership of the association, be and what would be their renumeration? Would then become their full time job? How would you square off the NDA and the requirement to maintain discipline with the fact that members of the PA would be disciplining other members of the PA? Who would be considered management? General Officers? All officers? WOs and above? What subject areas would the PA be allowed to negotiate? Working conditions? Pay? Equipment purchases? What Operations the CF conducts?

This is a hare-brained idea...

 
SeaKingTacco said:
I am sceptical. Many of Mr Drapeau's examples are only "sort of" true, if one treats outlier cases as the rule.  I am curious about a few things:

If the CF was allowed a professional association, how much per month would the mandatory dues be? Would the association be allowed to engage in political activity? Who would the leadership of the association, be and what would be their renumeration? Would then become their full time job? How would you square off the NDA and the requirement to maintain discipline with the fact that members of the PA would be disciplining other members of the PA? Who would be considered management? General Officers? All officers? WOs and above? What subject areas would the PA be allowed to negotiate? Working conditions? Pay? Equipment purchases? What Operations the CF conducts?

This is a hare-brained idea...

You left out the "Charitable Organization" status.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/chrts-gvng/lstngs/menu-eng.html
 
Mr Drapeau's does make some valid points in respect to Code of Service Discipline.
 
Isn't the CF one of the highest paid militaries in NATO ? If thats correct then unionizing would seem to be counter-productive.By the way I don't like the concept of a unionized military.
 
I was under the impression that you could appeal a Summary Trial conviction, and that if you did it would usually go to a higher authority who had more powers of punishment. Thus the incentive to appeal was usually pretty small. Is this right or?
 
X Royal said:
Mr Drapeau's does make some valid points in respect to Code of Service Discipline.
Again, there are a lot of misrepresentations of omission.
Code of Service Discipline: Approximately 2,000 soldiers—or one in every 34 Regular Force members—faces a summary trial each year. These disciplinary proceedings, which are heard by that soldier’s commanding officer, could lead to a sentence with ‘true penal consequences’ such as incarceration, demotion, a large fine, or a reprimand. A summary trial conviction may also result in a criminal record.  Amazingly, however, there is no right to legal counsel at a summary trial even if an accused is being tried on Canadian soil, during peacetime. Before a Commanding Officer has authority to levy any sentence that would lead to a criminal record, the accused must have been given an election to proceed by court martial and prior to making that election the accused would have had right to consult legal council.  This disciplinary procedure is also devoid of the following:

There are no records of proceeding;The presiding officer is required to maintain detailed notes of the proceeding.

There are no rules of evidence, including non-compellability of the accused to be a witness against himself, self-incrimination, adverse inference from the accused’s silence, or, spousal privilege; There are rules of evidence.  They are less than the rules of evidence in a court, but they are still there.  The accused cannot be compelled to be a witness against himself.  He can choose to be a witness, and that decision may work out for better or for worse.

There may be full reliance of hearsay evidence;True, but the threshold of "beyond reasonable doubt" still exists for a guilty finding.  It takes a lot of hearsay to overcome that threshold.

There is no right of appeal; and There is right to review.  The guilty may request the finding and/or the sentence be reviewed.  The review is conducted by the presiding officer's superior.  All summary trial files, when completed, pass through the local legal advisor office where they are informally reviewed - discovery of an anomaly of justice in a guilty finding (or sentencing) will lead to an automatic review.

There is no right to grieve the outcome of a summary trial. See above re: right to review

No other Canadian faces such a one-sided penal justice process. Summary Trial, at the level were election to court martial has not been given to the accused, is not analogous to a penal justice process but to the disciplinary process of a profession.  The comparison here should not be to criminal courts but the proceedings for professional misconduct that may apply to doctors or engineers.
 
HULK_011 said:
I was under the impression that you could appeal a Summary Trial conviction, and that if you did it would usually go to a higher authority who had more powers of punishment. Thus the incentive to appeal was usually pretty small. Is this right or?

That's partially correct. In requesting a Review of Summary Trial Proceedings, the review is done by the next level of authority for discipline (e.g. if the trial was by a delegated officer, it goes to the CO). The outcome of a Review of Proceedings can be a substitute punishment, but a new punishment cannot exceed the scale of punishment of the original presiding officer, and cannot be any worse than what was originally imposed.
 
How many times in a civilian court does not only the defendant, many of the possible witnesses  and the defender(assisting officer) of the accused work directly under the judge?
Before the trial would the presiding officer have access to the accused history far beyond what a civilian judge would have? In fact the presiding officer may already know the accused quite well. This may or may not work out in the accused favor.
Not a recipe for a fair and impartial trial IMO.
Although no presiding officer would like to be caught uttering the phase "march in the guilty bastard" I'm sure it is the feeling before the trial at times.
 
Back
Top