We’ve given up on Canada’s military, so let’s abandon it altogether

[EpicBeardedMan]

Comparing ourselves to our own standards gives us that impression.  When we work with foreign militaries, we will get a better picture.
I was saying that in the '80's, until I was posted over to 4 CMBG.  Then working with the Americans, Germans, Brits, French, etc. I realized that our trained Ptes and Cpls were better than most of their E5 level ranks in NATO.  One of my favourite compliments was: "We all have the equipment; you all know how to use it." or "You Canadians are crazy."

This is true, even on the coasts with the Navy doing war games with the Americans.

"If I had Canadian Soldiers, American technology and British officers I would rule the world."
~Sir Winston Churchill

 

[jollyjacktar]

I was on the gold medal team at the DC Olympics held at the Resolve DC School facilities for Fort Lauderdale Fleet Week 2006.  PRE beat a number of USN teams and repeated the performance two years later.  The Resolve's owner wasn't too pleased.  What really blew their minds in particular was the FF's.  They set record times that were minutes ahead for hose set ups, handling and manouvering through the course.  I was quite frankly not prepared for how well we all did that day.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Comparing ourselves to our own

No sir.

Our defense minister saying Canada is taking a ‘feminist approach’ to the military, is what I'm referring to. And quite retarded  :nod:

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

No sir.

Our defense minister saying Canada is taking a ‘feminist approach’ to the military, is what I'm referring to. And quite retarded  :nod:

What did that even mean? I didn't see what they meant in the article, like do they mean they're focusing on recruiting more women?

 

[jollyjacktar]

No sir.

Our defense minister saying Canada is taking a ‘feminist approach’ to the military, is what I'm referring to. And quite retarded  :nod:

We're going to be man haters now?  :dunno:

 

[GR66]

We're going to be man person haters now?  :dunno:

FTFY

 

[Jarnhamar]

If we're taking a feminist approach to recruiting does that mean the military will no longer have weaker physical fitness standards for women?

Otherwise I'm pretty sure we already get paid the same.

 

[jollyjacktar]

:facepalm:

FTFY

 

[Remius]

If we're taking a feminist approach to recruiting does that mean the military will no longer have weaker physical fitness standards for women?

Otherwise I'm pretty sure we already get paid the same.

Is that still a thing?  I’m pretty sure the force test is one standard.  Unless something else exists in recruiting I’m unaware of.

 

[Underway]

Slipped in here is another call more women in the Armed Forces (although without a rational as to "why" we should do so).

I think you should be providing a rationale "why" we shouldn't.  It's pretty obvious if you spend 30 seconds thinking about it from an economic, social perspective.  Not even including the whole values proposition.

If we're taking a feminist approach to recruiting does that mean the military will no longer have weaker physical fitness standards for women?

Otherwise I'm pretty sure we already get paid the same.

I'm guessing you are not paid the same because the FORCE standard is a single standard for years now.  How's retirement going?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Is that still a thing?  I’m pretty sure the force test is one standard.  Unless something else exists in recruiting I’m unaware of.

Sorry I mean incentive levels.

 

[da1root]

Sorry I mean incentive levels.

"Incentive Levels" went way of the dodo bird with the introduction of the new FORCE test; now we have a "fitness profile".

https://www.cfmws.com/en/AboutUs/PSP/DFIT/Fitness/FORCEprogram/Pages/About-Fitness-Profile.aspx

And the "fitness profile" doesn't count for anything; with the new test you either pass it, or you fail it - regardless of gender and age the minimum requirements for passing remain the same.

Edit Note: I did see "Incentive Level" on that page after my post; however it is not the same that previously existed with our previous fitness test.  The site states that in 2017 a motivational program will start to recognize those that perform well - it's 2018 and that hasn't occurred yet (at least in Borden)

 

[Halifax Tar]

"Incentive Levels" went way of the dodo bird with the introduction of the new FORCE test; now we have a "fitness profile".

https://www.cfmws.com/en/AboutUs/PSP/DFIT/Fitness/FORCEprogram/Pages/About-Fitness-Profile.aspx

And the "fitness profile" doesn't count for anything; with the new test you either pass it, or you fail it - regardless of gender and age the minimum requirements for passing remain the same.

I hate that waste measurement thing.  Its dead set against front row forwards.  Forget the fact I ace all the timings the fact I am tight head prop knocks my score down.  Sorry the derail...

 

[Jarnhamar]

"Incentive Levels" went way of the dodo bird with the introduction of the new FORCE test; now we have a "fitness profile".

https://www.cfmws.com/en/AboutUs/PSP/DFIT/Fitness/FORCEprogram/Pages/About-Fitness-Profile.aspx

And the "fitness profile" doesn't count for anything; with the new test you either pass it, or you fail it - regardless of gender and age the minimum requirements for passing remain the same.

Thanks it's great to hear the CAF is no longer going to discriminate against males when it comes to incentive levels and PER points. I'm genuinely humbly corrected.


So then we're paid the same, have the same rights, same fitness standards, all trades are open, no extra per points due to incentive levels depending on gender.  Feminism is defined as fighting for women's equality. What exactly is this feminist approach to recruiting?

 

[da1root]

I hate that waste measurement thing.  Its dead set against front row forwards.  Forget the fact I ace all the timings the fact I am tight head prop knocks my score down.  Sorry the derail...

Totally agree, I'm a 1/2 marathon runner (did the Army Run last year in under 1 hr 50 min) and the first year they did the measurement there was a guy in my unit who couldn't run 5Km let alone 21.1Km and he scored a Silver and I was in the "Operational Fit but Marginal Health-Related Fitness" and we had almost identical timings (except the burpee/run which I had 8 seconds faster) - and all because my waist is a 38" and his was 32"... pffffft ... ok I got derailed too

Thanks it's great to hear the CAF is no longer going to discriminate against males when it comes to incentive levels and PER points. I'm genuinely humbly corrected.


So then we're paid the same, have the same rights, same fitness standards, all trades are open.  Feminism is defined as fighting for women's equality. What exactly is this feminist approach to recruiting?

The following statement is not that of the CAF; but rather my experience in recruiting only.</preamble> I don't see any difference in what I'm doing today vice what I was doing 3+ years ago when I first started in the Recruiting world.  Yes we try to "target" (i.e. market to) Women, Aboriginals & Visible Minorities - but that is inline with the Government (and not just Liberal, we did this under the Conservatives too) desire for the military to have a representation of those in uniform that matches what the Canadian population is.

Ok here I got opening a can of worms and I'm sure there are some that will think "oh boy, did he drink the kool-aid" ... but being out there trying to get people to join I do experience the following question from women more than men "Do you think I'm strong enough or in shape enough to be able to be in the military?" - So could we change our marketing a bit so that becomes a question that isn't asked so much...probably...

 

[Remius]

So then we're paid the same, have the same rights, same fitness standards, all trades are open.  Feminism is defined as fighting for women's equality. What exactly is this feminist approach to recruiting?

Feminism is a bit more complicated and diverse than a simple definition.  I believe the actual quote is a feminist approach to the military not necessarily recruiting but I’m sure that’s included.  It’s a bit of a broad statement though.


However look at it from this perspective.  One that Underway touched on.  We have a numbers problem.  We also have a perception problem and a retention problem.  We need to tap into that’s 50% of the population to help with all of those issues. 

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

Ok here I got opening a can of worms and I'm sure there are some that will think "oh boy, did he drink the kool-aid" ... but being out there trying to get people to join I do experience the following question from women more than men "Do you think I'm strong enough or in shape enough to be able to be in the military?" - So could we change our marketing a bit so that becomes a question that isn't asked so much...probably...

There should be different requirements based on what the reasonable expectation of what you expect to be doing within your trade, but I realize that might be an administrative nightmare. On SQ as it was called a few years back, I remember Sig Ops and Combat Engineer women who couldn't march more than 2km with their rucks on and had to pawn them off to other members of the Platoon to carry, so we rotated having to carry 2 rucks each...staff allowed it..imagine how that would have worked out overseas and her FTP was the average male wearing full kit...do you think she'd be able to drag him to safety?

The top student was a Combat Engineer who didn't know how to field strip a C6 and who dropped a live grenade in her pit during the grenade portion...after a course where most of what you learn is the C6. I think there definitely is some leaning bias towards women in the forces, that's why it's kind of confusing to see things like "we're going to be more feminist in the future", isn't that kind of already a thing, how do you add to that?

I am aware that feminism is on a broad spectrum but if they don't mean recruiting wise, what else do they mean?

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Buck_HRA] .

Ok here I got opening a can of worms and I'm sure there are some that will think "oh boy, did he drink the kool-aid" ... but being out there trying to get people to join I do experience the following question from women more than men "Do you think I'm strong enough or in shape enough to be able to be in the military?" - So could we change our marketing a bit so that becomes a question that isn't asked so much...probably...
[/quote]

But thats an important question to ask isn't it?  I regularly try to follow up with people I help recruit.  The last guy I spoke with said 15 some recruits from his course failed the FORCE test, 12 or 13 of them were female. Only a couple females passed. The CAF then spent money and instructor hours sending  all 15 to warrior platoon essentially paying them to work out, clogging the system and taking spots on future serials.  It seems to be a common theme (YMMV). 

Im not sure what changing our marketing would aim to accomplish. 

I'm hoping saying a feminist approach to recruiting is just a dumb way of marketing the CAF to women more (somehow)  and not changing any more of the recruiting process.

 

[George Wallace]

We're going to be man person people haters now?  :dunno:

FTFY

Double FTFY

;D

 

[George Wallace]

What did that even mean? I didn't see what they meant in the article, like do they mean they're focusing on recruiting more women?

Perhaps we will be taking lessons from those Nordic Swedes.....:dunno: