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Weapons modification RANT.

See, and here I was thinking that the special forces guys could do whatever they wanted to.  
I am no weapons SME, but this strikes me as a "walk before you run" issue.  Of course you don't want to see guys putting crap on their weapons during BMQ.  IMO they should be on the range with iron sights and once they can get a good grouping at 400 m, then start with optics and such.  Good shooting is what it is.  All the gizmo's and crap won't make a bad shooter better.  
I also imagine that when they are playing "make a new friend" in the Sandbox or wherever, the SOF types do whatever they want anyway.  Kind of like your daughter on the way to school.  Once she is out the door in the outfit you laid out for her, she whips out the one she will actually wear once she gets to school.  As long as mom and dad don't see it, she's okay.  
What I infer from I-6's post is that it would be nice if guys that are putting their lives out there in stickier-than-normal situations didn't have to go out of pocket for top shelf equipment to do their jobs better.  You don't buy your 16 year old a Le Mans race car.  But once they show that they can handle it, you let up the hammer.  
Would it be possible to create a course at one of the Battle schools, whereby high end snipers and SOF types could take a course in upgrades?  Call it something like "Advanced Weapon Modifications for Special Operatives".  Have some weapons techs, JTF leaders, senior snipers etc all get together, go over a bunch of stuff and put together a seminar/course.  Then, have guys come and be familiarized with a variety of kit and how it best suits them and how it affects their performance.  Once qualified, if you are going into an actual theatre of operations, you could submit a request to be compensated for an approved kit list of special upgrades as long as you could justify it.  I would think word would get around about what the best combinations of barrels/optics/munitions/mag systems etc. to everyone, and pretty quick it would look pretty much like a standard kit list.  Then, when new things came out on the market, you would have your best and brightest testing it in an actual combat situation, and thereby making all of us a bit more effective and safe.  
Just a thought.  

Zipperhead_novice
 
paracowboy said:
no. I just didn't want the dude to get charged by one of the afore-mentioned dinosaurs. I think we all know how much I love the EOTech. Even more than the Aimpoint. (As an example)

While I would like the Army to smarten up and allow troops to kit their stuff out better, I know that it's going to end up badly the first time some Chairborne Garatrooper sees a troop with his boots unbloused, and an "illegal modification" to his weapon.
Agreed.  Make the mods HERE and not THERE.  Make the crown foot the bill.  Make sure the mods work, and make it tailored for the role intended.  As an example, not too many postal clerks in the Sand Box may need EOTech sights!  Just a guess here is all ;)
 
Infidel-6 said:
While I would not tell a medic how to do his job - I would suggest that if the FOO feels its time to use his C8 - you give him credence that he knows his job.
True enough. His self defence.

Infidel-6 said:
My god - you'd think some of you believe that guy wanted to ship a suitcase nuke or something to his brother  :P
Big Red said:
If a giant machine like the US mil can handle the *anarchy* of allowing personal weapons mods why can't a small army like ours?

Well, it starts with a simple foregrip handle, and where does it stop?  ;)
Seriously though, this isn't personal kit and comfort. We are talking weapons systems. Changing an upper receiver to one not issued...now that is pushing your luck. If Soldier A puts on a fancy sight on his rifle, what happens to him when in the next subsequent fight accidental ends up shooting his buddy because he did not use his sight properly?

....Or shall we allow soldiers to buy special radios (like a SINGARS or MBTER or whatever) cause TCCCS sucks?

Perhaps its the "rock painter" mentality in me, but when it comes to certain things we should only be allowed to use what the CF gives us. And I know we will not change each others opinion on this one.

von Garvin said:
Make the mods HERE and not THERE.  Make the crown foot the bill.  Make sure the mods work, and make it tailored for the role intended.  As an example, not too many postal clerks in the Sand Box may need EOTech sights!
+1 on that.
 
zipperhead_cop said:
Would it be possible to create a course at one of the Battle schools, whereby high end snipers and SOF types could take a course in upgrades?  Call it something like "Advanced Weapon Modifications for Special Operatives".  Have some weapons techs, JTF leaders, senior snipers etc all get together, go over a bunch of stuff and put together a seminar/course.  Then, have guys come and be familiarized with a variety of kit and how it best suits them and how it affects their performance.  Once qualified, if you are going into an actual theatre of operations, you could submit a request to be compensated for an approved kit list of special upgrades as long as you could justify it.  I would think word would get around about what the best combinations of barrels/optics/munitions/mag systems etc. to everyone, and pretty quick it would look pretty much like a standard kit list.  Then, when new things came out on the market, you would have your best and brightest testing it in an actual combat situation, and thereby making all of us a bit more effective and safe.
dude, I can't even get my snipers issued the fucking .338! Or replace our busted-ass .50! I can't even get them issued Ghillies! You think the army is going to run something like this? You have any idea how many mini-empires would crumble? The bureaucracy would crush it. Before it even began.
 
I've been doing my own weapons mods for awhile -- I have never had any heat - other than a CQ who got pissed he could not shut the rack and made me remove a vertical grip while it was in the vault...  that said -- I just did them and never asked.

The final fiasco was the JAG who claimed that my 16" 1:7 twist Douglas Stainless Steel match barrel - was modifiying my weapon to created greater wounding than the 16" 1:7 twist Diemaco barrel  ::)



VG and PCB have great points - and I agree with them 100%

 Training is job 1 all the cool guy toys will not help you without training.
 Some may say mindset is #1 since without the proper mindset you dont get the perspective on trainign that you need to get value from it.  However these days I see more and more in the CF with the proper mindset - its becoming (a refreshing) overwehlming majority.

 Once you have all that kit is great - for good kit properly employed is a force multiplier.

FWIW -- JTF assaulter have up to 6 different uppers and a few different Sig pistols. Add in M14SE "Crazy Horse" (flop) AR10C (flop) FNC1A1 build (flop it appears) and the guys are not wanting for toys - S&B, NigthForce, Tijicon, EoTECH and Aimpiont -- no worries the Nations Elite is covered for gear.  The issue here is not SOF units - as I have a buddy at the Hill that has pointed out that that CSOR will have a fair bit of latitude one weapon "decoration".


Shandy Vida covered my back on a few issues when he was the CO of 1 VP -- he knew I was right, and the guys trying to get me (who watch this forum BTW) where wrong.  I still have faith that the leadership (by and large) of the CF will do the right thing.

Secondly it is next to impossible to charge a troop for adding a personal EOTECH to his/her issue weapon when a troop across the tent has an issue one and the only reason is availability that he/she did not get one.  I am sure a few of the reporters in theatre would get a kick out of covering that trial.  
 "Soldier charged for adding sighting system to weapon"


I will also add -- I ran a portion A Coy 1VP thru a CQB weapon package with the assitance of two board members here -- soldiers with the EOTECH scored a shit load better (like a 4x increase in kills and a hue decrease in time) than soldiers with Irons or the C79.
 The kicker is it was my personal EoTech and none had previous experience other than the 3 instructors...



Para -- cut these out and hand them to the guys  ;)

pgw1.jpg

pgw2.jpg

pgw3.jpg

pgw4.jpg


Last I spoke to Steve he was on track for delivery - the late change from USO to S&B scope set tham back (that was months ago) - I understood the units should have gotten some by now unless Gagetown is playing the hoarding game...


DLR 5-5 gets fuck on weapon budgeting -- the troops pay the bills.  :'(








 
I have to admit to being a kit-whore and having my fair share ( ok probably more than my fair share ) of personaly funded kit. I am all for anything that makes me a more effective soldier whether that be comm's kit, pers kit or weapons add-ons. Unfortunatly funding is an issue in my unit. We are lucky to put 100 rounds per year down range, and we have troops who have never fired the C6 or thrown a grenade. Add to that weapons techs who don't know shite ( ours told me he would see me charged if I added a vertical grip to my A2 ) and the reality is that Gucci is'nt gonna happen for me. In the long run I would rather see the money that could be used for "lights and sights" be used for ammo to properly train troops to proficiency. Just my $.02


 
Canadian Sig  -- unfortunately they come from different budgets.



 
 
Infidel-6 said:
Secondly it is next to impossible to charge a troop for adding a personal EOTECH to his/her issue weapon when a troop across the tent has an issue one and the only reason is availability that he/she did not get one.
you want to wager someone's tour pay on that? I don't. Like I said, I've seen charges attempted for a lot sillier reasons. Some stuck.

There are enough lurking assholes (who don't have the parts to come out and say who they are, and why they're here) that will use these means to attempt to bully subordinates. We've seen it before. Barbarian's brother, for example, was quite clearly ID'd, and if his CoC have the dinosaur mentality, (I'm not saying his CoC are assholes. I don't know. He's my easiest example) they'd pay attention to his weapons sight. Should it change from an issued C79 to an EOTech, he'd be hooped. Regardless of whether it made sense.
 
PCB -- yeah they could try...  Thats his decision to make.
Personally if someone tried to charge me for that (back when I was in) I'd relish the chance to fry some of the assholes.

FWIW did they swap out all the C8's to C8A1's -- most of the other trades just got iron C8's anyway (which makes the FOO issue a sidebar and not relevant unless he wanted to send his brother a flattop upper too  ;D)
 







 
some have seen the light. over in the first herd, they're allowing them to get away with quite a few things now.
half of my room mates rifle was purchased on his own. the buttstock, the scope, the ris system, the vert grip, the sling, I think he's got his on sure fire now.
really all I want to do is get a new scope, a ris barrel, is that too much to ask? okay well I want to get rid of half my issued kit as well, but still.
Greg
 
positive signs, to be sure. But, I will continue to err on the side of caution on this site, to keep troops and the owner, out of shit whenever possible.

I'm crazy like that.
 
Infidel-6 said:
FWIW did they swap out all the C8's to C8A1's -- most of the other trades just got iron C8's anyway (which makes the FOO issue a sidebar and not relevant unless he wanted to send his brother a flattop upper too  ;D)

Only very pointy end troops get them....FOO party, probably not.

Most AFV crew only get the C8 and not the A1s at all. Those are reserved for troops doing the really dirty work of getting up close and personal.

Getting back to the thread in question....

As for the idea of someone in theater changing to another sight without first training with it on a live range (re: no time to train but get on with the job) is at best absolutely retarded wouldn't you say?

We aren't talking about some vert handle or Surefire light here but an integral part of the weapon.

I'm not trying to insult you I-6, but trying to educate some of the other members here that know squat about this stuff. You know the ones I'm talking about. They can't hit a shooting in screen at 100m never mind someone shooting at them at 200m with an AK.

Now if this person had trained with it and had permission to use it prior to leaving for the poo dust box then I'm sure that there would be absolutely no problems here.

I highly doubt that he will have the time and the spare ammo to go and dial in his sight so he can have his Gucci sight. I know the drill for doing a range shoot in K-Town, as do many others here as well. It's not as easy as it was in Julian at all.

Here's another thought....what if he has to use it and it craps out? I know that is very unlikely, but playing devils advocate....

But I digress....

My point is....if he had trained with it and demonstrated confidence with it prior to going over this would not be a problem to anyone here, nor his CoC.

But he didn't, period. With this in mind, this site can't condon it in any way shape or form.

My $0.02 worth.

Regards
 
Recce By Death said:
Only very pointy end troops get them....FOO party, probably not.

Most AFV crew only get the C8 and not the A1s at all. Those are reserved for troops doing the really dirty work of getting up close and personal.

Sigs doing the dirty work? Up close and personal? Somehow (in most cases) I think not  :D



Although a few Sigs will get to be Rovers or SDS and be in direct "harms way" most will sit in the FOB or at KAF.
 
If he had a C8A1 with a properly installed BIS it could drop on and be dry zero'd sicne it will co-witness between the rear and front sights
Secondly most troops get the kit they are using once in theatre (EOTECH's etc.)

Not saying what he wanted to do was right - just that some of the rationale against is similar to reasons to leave the PAS-13 etc. in the CQ...

I'll stop stirring the pot now though ;)
 
Quagmire said:
Did the guys that got the EOTech's in previous tours have trigger time on them?

Yes.....we did. Then had to go back to an iron sight in theater    ::)

I-6,

You are making very valid points here, thus making a very informative thread. I am an avide shooter and would love to be able to modify my weapon as I see fit....

But again, I can't nor can any troop just because he wants to have every bell and whistle on his weapon in theater. I know what works and have used it in theater. I trained with them prior to going over and had confidence in my weapon.

You are in a unique position, knowledgable and without the constraints of DND....which I and most people who have been in the poobox envy.



Canadian Sig,

We are not talking about someone who is not going to be "In the thick of it"    ;)

Regards
 
Quagmire said:
If that's the case does it not counter RBD's point?
that point, yes. But, it remains that we cannot, in good conscience advocate ANY soldier add/remove ANYTHING from their weapon unless in accordance with the direction from their CoC. To do so would be irresponsible. It opens that soldier up to legal actions and, should he suffer an accident, even more trouble with his CoC.

This site will not allow that. For the sake of the troops, and for the sake of the site owner. Stop trying to bring more heat down on Mike!
 
Quagmire said:
If that's the case does it not counter RBD's point?

How so?

He's going to get the sight in theater without any training on it at all....read no live rounds down range.

Think that the CoC will set up a range in KAF just for him, one person, to sight in his weapon? Methink's not.

So will he be able to use a sight that he's not trained with or sighted in? Again...I don't think so.

paracowboy said:
we did. Eventually. Kandahar, I dunno.

Of course you guys had the 25m range availiable to use near the Queens Palace to set your sights.

KAF doesn't have the nicety of a range with such useage.

Regards
 
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