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We didn't have that on my tour. We had to cross the city, and use the ranges out past the airport.Recce By Death said:
Weapons modification RANT.
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My point being that those issued said sight in the sandbox are in the same boat as those who bring the same sight that they own. Neither of them will have the trigger time. That is all.
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True.
But I'd hypothetically pack it myself (different situation I know).
But I'd hypothetically pack it myself (different situation I know).
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Each Platoon (031) is issued a laser bore sit kit -- in it the laser bore sight also has a screen to dry sight the CCO (Aimpoint or EOTECH).
Concern for the troop - fine, however I dont think anyone here is saying YOU MUST GO OUT AND BUY XXXX for its cool and you need it to live. Same goes for Mike -- I'm sure he knows I have no intention on getting him in trouble.
However confidence can sometime be instilled (remember the arguments about the bayonet I had with VG and Art M?) be issuing an item that acts as a placebo -- IF the FOO (or whomever) sees Mr Superbeard JTF Assaulter with his 10" C8CQB OPSINC suppressor and EOTECH -- maybe he takes comfort in knowing that he has an optic that is issued by the Hill. Who cares -- the damn thing is issue yeah maybe his is not -- but I can guarantee you that when I went to Afghan with the CF the VAST majority issued the EOTECH's had not seen them before -- a lot came to me to ask how to zero it and where to put it -- more did not -- many have not ever received proper training in it - nor understand the why and how's of its employment.
The only problem we found with guys using their own EOTECH's was the CF tried to keep them end tour... >
Concern for the troop - fine, however I dont think anyone here is saying YOU MUST GO OUT AND BUY XXXX for its cool and you need it to live. Same goes for Mike -- I'm sure he knows I have no intention on getting him in trouble.
However confidence can sometime be instilled (remember the arguments about the bayonet I had with VG and Art M?) be issuing an item that acts as a placebo -- IF the FOO (or whomever) sees Mr Superbeard JTF Assaulter with his 10" C8CQB OPSINC suppressor and EOTECH -- maybe he takes comfort in knowing that he has an optic that is issued by the Hill. Who cares -- the damn thing is issue yeah maybe his is not -- but I can guarantee you that when I went to Afghan with the CF the VAST majority issued the EOTECH's had not seen them before -- a lot came to me to ask how to zero it and where to put it -- more did not -- many have not ever received proper training in it - nor understand the why and how's of its employment.
The only problem we found with guys using their own EOTECH's was the CF tried to keep them end tour... >
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Quag,
what part of the below are you not grasping, dude?
If yu want to discuss the merits of various sights, supressors, vests, chest rigs, rucksacks, or fuckin' tanks, hey! Feel free. But don't recommend troops modify their weapons systems.
Fer Chris'sake, dude. Are you TRYING to bring NDHQasaurus trouble on Mike?
what part of the below are you not grasping, dude?
Quit playing devil's advocate. Anyone who wants to buy their own shit and use it overseas had better damn well have the approval of their CoC, and that is the last word from this site.paracowboy said:
If yu want to discuss the merits of various sights, supressors, vests, chest rigs, rucksacks, or fuckin' tanks, hey! Feel free. But don't recommend troops modify their weapons systems.
Fer Chris'sake, dude. Are you TRYING to bring NDHQasaurus trouble on Mike?
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Infidel-6 said:I prefer to think we are on the same sheet of music - I just read faster
Oh believe me, if I could have what I wanted for my own C8 in Afghanistan....
*drool drool*
I brought up many points prior to going over, along with the fact that a good friend of mine was willing to do some pro bono work (gunsmith...ex ERT) and got shot down left right and center.
It's the nature of the beast....but it is slowly *sigh* changing.
That being said....
We still must obey the directives given.
Regards
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now, if folks want to discuss hypotheticals, and make up wish-lists, that's fair game.
Or if they want to debates the merits of assorted kit items, that's all good.
Even if they just want to rant about dinosaurs in the system screwing things up for the guys at the sharp end, give 'er!
But, remember, there are dumbasses who will do stupid shit because "some guy" on the internet said something, and there are dumbasses who will charge people for stupid shit like sewing M203 bandoliers on their TV.
Or if they want to debates the merits of assorted kit items, that's all good.
Even if they just want to rant about dinosaurs in the system screwing things up for the guys at the sharp end, give 'er!
But, remember, there are dumbasses who will do stupid shit because "some guy" on the internet said something, and there are dumbasses who will charge people for stupid shit like sewing M203 bandoliers on their TV.
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Quagmire said:
Now if I did then I'm sorry.
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I had two Cpl's from 1VP approach me to buy S&B Short Dot scopes after a few firefights -- cause they disappointed with the EOTECH and ELCAN - in the fact that the EO was good for CQB and yet not so good for tgt detection and discrimination at 250M+ (they are nice kind Canadian boys that try not to wack the wrong hadji) Yet they mistrust the ELCAN (for good reason) and where disappointed with the CQB ability of it.
Tells you something when a soldier who is married (and one has two kids) is willing to buy a $2300 sight.
Also tells me he's thinking its a good investment.
* Gotta love the pant bloused NAZI's -- It can be helpful to scan and laminate a copy of the dress regs where it points that in hot weather sleeves and pants can be unbuttoned and unbloused...
Tells you something when a soldier who is married (and one has two kids) is willing to buy a $2300 sight.
Also tells me he's thinking its a good investment.
* Gotta love the pant bloused NAZI's -- It can be helpful to scan and laminate a copy of the dress regs where it points that in hot weather sleeves and pants can be unbuttoned and unbloused...
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This is a great thread. As a former infantry NCO and current SWAT armorer, I have a lot of interest in this topic. Operators have all different levels of proficiency with their weapons. Also, there are so many things you can hang off your weapon, it could look like a science experiment if that's the way you want to go. Most everything you can buy has some application, but there is a definite point where you can go overboard with accessories. If you have your own weapon and you know what you're doing, then you can put anything on it you want— no problem. But a 19 or 20 year old infantryman with a government issued rifle is a different story. Armorers make modifications to weapons and there are very good reasons for that.
This is a good thread!
I don't suppose there's a troop out there that hasn't supplement his kit somehow (remember the c-5 knife?) but in my days we never modified weapons- heck, there wasn't much that I knew to modify!
One thing we did modify (heavily!) was kit lists. I found that my older troops knew what they needed to be comfortable in the field and accomplish the mission. This was based on experience and individual skills. I also found that my new troops had no idea what they needed (though they sure thought they did!). Lastly, as the guy responsible for both the mission and my troops, I knew what I needed (both personal kit and troop kit) to get the job done. May be unfair, but when I did kit checks I cut the older guys some slack on their personal kit-and made sure the new kids had everything I thought they needed, until they could prove to me otherwise. Troop kit was my call.
There's two bad things about non- issued kit:
- the "old" guys who know are often emulated by the "young guys" who don't know. This will put a lot of stress on the Snr NCO's who will have to judge each situation on it's own merit. (I think they can handle it...but will the troops accept the "inequality" ??..I think so too) However, the buck stops at the CO- and he will carry a LOT of the blame if someone dies because of un-authorised kit. Arguments on both sides, but it all boils down to the CO- and again, I think they can carry the weight, especially if given a good argument for the change.
- the supply system- if a privately owned but much needed piece of kit dies in the field, how do we replace it in a timely manner? Short answer, we don't. The support system is geared up for issued gear- it'd fall apart trying to support non-issued stuff as well- and that may be a show stopper.
Good discussion!
I don't suppose there's a troop out there that hasn't supplement his kit somehow (remember the c-5 knife?) but in my days we never modified weapons- heck, there wasn't much that I knew to modify!
One thing we did modify (heavily!) was kit lists. I found that my older troops knew what they needed to be comfortable in the field and accomplish the mission. This was based on experience and individual skills. I also found that my new troops had no idea what they needed (though they sure thought they did!). Lastly, as the guy responsible for both the mission and my troops, I knew what I needed (both personal kit and troop kit) to get the job done. May be unfair, but when I did kit checks I cut the older guys some slack on their personal kit-and made sure the new kids had everything I thought they needed, until they could prove to me otherwise. Troop kit was my call.
There's two bad things about non- issued kit:
- the "old" guys who know are often emulated by the "young guys" who don't know. This will put a lot of stress on the Snr NCO's who will have to judge each situation on it's own merit. (I think they can handle it...but will the troops accept the "inequality" ??..I think so too) However, the buck stops at the CO- and he will carry a LOT of the blame if someone dies because of un-authorised kit. Arguments on both sides, but it all boils down to the CO- and again, I think they can carry the weight, especially if given a good argument for the change.
- the supply system- if a privately owned but much needed piece of kit dies in the field, how do we replace it in a timely manner? Short answer, we don't. The support system is geared up for issued gear- it'd fall apart trying to support non-issued stuff as well- and that may be a show stopper.
Good discussion!
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I had an old Korean vet CSM, a long time ago on my Jr NCO course tell us something. He said "Never deny a man to carry whatever weapon he wants and is comfortable with, be it knife, pistol, shotgun, whatever. Just ensure they know they are completely responsible for the ammo and upkeep, and it is secondary to the issue weapon and full ammo load that they will also carry, use and maintain".
Now I'm not coming out on either side, both have good points. I just passed on the above to show this is an age old problem that surfaces everytime we end up in combat. It wasn't solved then, and it won't be solved now.
BTW, that CSM was RCR.
Now I'm not coming out on either side, both have good points. I just passed on the above to show this is an age old problem that surfaces everytime we end up in combat. It wasn't solved then, and it won't be solved now.
BTW, that CSM was RCR.
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I would think that cmbt changes perceptions.
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