Where are the Desert CADPAT‘s?

[fortuncookie5084]

We‘re sending our troops into a combat zone dressed to fight in green, wooded areas. Where‘s the desert pattern? If they don‘t have enough desert pattern uniforms to go around then somebody should order the company responsible for manufacturing them to go hog wild until all 700 troops are dressed properly. I don‘t want to hear about even one of our troops getting wounded or killed because his green uniform made him or her stand out in a grey-beige dirty, sandy terrain.

 

[bender]

I was thinking the exact same thing when i saw a news clip of the first canadian troops in Afghanistan. This is where improper funding comes into play again! I can only imagine what the marines are thinking about the Canadian green uniforms running around in a DESERT!!

 

[Recce41]

Well
It took them about 2 months to get us in Somalia,uniforms. Remember we are a temperate country. The Marines are issued Green and Tan., But not winter kit. So they have the same problem in say Greenland in the Winter. Some of them have the new Marpat Green too, in Country. I‘ve seen them on CNN, etc. Check out my post Marines get new cloths.
Sgt J. CD, CDS com. :tank:

 

[Andyboy]

From what I understand the desert pattern isn‘t specified yet. I know we‘ve all seen the pictures of it on the CTS website but I think that it‘s still in the conceptual phase. I work in the industry and I havn‘t seen anything pertaining to the T&E or the Specs for the CADPAT, Arid Region (AR) but I have with the CADPAT Teperate Woodland (TW) stuff.

 

[Garett]

I‘ve seen the Desert uniform on a PPCLI Sgt. thats working with Clothe The Soldier. They did a presentation at our unit because they were in town for the Canadian Infantry Association Annual General Meeting. I think if the brass wanted to get it out to the troops they would. Its all about $$$ and politics.

 

[snooprobbiedog]

Ok, well, if there were the sand-coloured (non-CADPAT) combats available for Somalia, then how come they‘re not being used now? I know that that they do exist (dunno in what quantities), because we wore them on an ex as enemy force...

Rob

 

[spacemarine]

The CF also owns some desert DPM, an officer was talking about getting some for enemy force use once.

 

[astrof]

I‘ve been told that soldiers going to afghanistan have been advised to bleach their uniforms before they go overseas so they will have a more ‘worn‘ look and not stick out as much the bright greeen new look.

 

[Andyboy]

Like I said, we have all seen the Desert CADPAT however I don‘t believe it has been tested or approved for use. The Temperate version underwent some pretty exhaustive testing and evaluation, not to mention the technical difficulties involved in actually printing it. It‘s not a simple as drawing something up and getting it screen printed and viola. The specs for the Temperate version are pretty involved. There is thirteen pages of graphs, charts and tests for the colours alone. The IRR tests and standards are another 14 pages and the pattern itself is another matter. So why aren‘t our troops kitted out in desert CADPAT? I imagine it was a descision made during the initial stages of the Clothe The Soldier program as to what the priority was Temperate or Desert. Obviously at the time Desert was a should have not a must have. Why don‘t they have the old tan kit? I dunno, probably because it is spread across the country being used as EN force uniforms.

AS for seeing all the new kit. Don‘t be fooled, most of the kit SGT Parolin was showcasing across the country wasn‘t yet finalised. The Tactical Vest wasn‘t finalised until November of last year when the Manufacturing Data package came out. The rest of that stuff, the small pack, ruck, pouches, havn‘t been finalised yet and so what you saw won‘t necessarily be what you get. I‘m not suggesting that he was being dishones but I don‘t think you will know what the stuff really looks like until you sign for it. The good news though is it is actually being tested by some pretty competent test establishments for some pretty specific issues instead of just some guy sitting in an office.

 

[fortuncookie5084]

I‘m pleased that the media has picked up on this problem. When I first posted this yesterday I hadn‘t heard a peep from anyone about our improperly dressed soldiers.

So the desert pattern cadpat isn‘t ready...then we should buy something for our troops until it is. Many countries have something suitable for arid landscapes (not just the yanks, for those out there who wouldn‘t like to don American desert camo). This isn‘t about pride, this is about preventing a potentially serious problem.

Seriously, we‘ve been working on CADPAT for over ten years. There is no excuse as to why it isn‘t out and available to everyone by now.

 

[rceme_rat]

This is one of the results of the down-sizing trend.

As the forces got smaller, there were fewer people available to take on certain tasks. At the same time, certain political flavours were emphasizing the ratio of support troops to bayonets. This desire to protect their own in a time of down-sizing amplified the effect on troops doing headquarters-type tasks. On of those tasks is the selection of new equipment. Kind of hard to do when you don‘t have enough people to run project offices, maintain test establishments, etc.

We are now at the point where we may have to rely on allies to do the selection and testing for us. Our policy could be simply to adopt the same kit as the U.S., or the Brits, etc., and foregoing any Canadianization.

Another problem in this area is purely financial -- with such limited funds available, the military has been forced to pick and choose its projects. The government won‘t make major purchases since these are announced as a "big number" projects, even when the maintenance funds that would be saved over the years would reduce that number significantly. The result is that few new purchases are authorised even though they are clearly needed.

Nonetheless, I can see slow progress -- when I left the military 6 years ago (at the end of a year long PK mission), troops were deploying in monocoloured, faded, threadbare combats. Only those going to Yugo had the new helmets, while we had the old tin pots. I had a Vietnam-era flak jacket. No optical sight on my C7, etc.

Admittedly, progress is damnably slow - we were talking about tank replacements, Iltis replacements, 5/4 replacements (it has happened, but do they really work?), etc. long before I left. About the only real success seems to be in the area of wheeled AFVs and perhaps new light arty. And that opens up a whole other discussion, doesn‘t it?

As for the Somolia kit being re-issued for Afgahnistan -- it was my understanding that much of that kit had to be destroyed because of it having become dust-impregnated and concerns about bringing the kit back into Canada. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[cagomez]

Well, if our troops over in Afghanistan aren‘t going to to have descent cam over there they might as well ditch their combats and dress like the locals. It amy be dangerous for friendly fire and they better not get captured wearing the stuff but at least they will blend in. I‘ve seen pics of some member of the advance party wearing our green CADPAT helmet standing next to some marine in TAN BDUs. the poor guy might as well be wearing a marker vest. Why didn‘t anybody think of this sooner. I‘ve seen tan combats on ex before and if they can‘t get them why can‘t they at least borrow them from one of our allies like the yanks or Brits. Afghanistan has to be one of the biggest "combat" ops our forces will see and I hate to see anything bad happen due to useless uniforms. Cam and concealment has to be one of the most basic field crafts :cam:

 

[snooprobbiedog]

The desert combats I‘m talking about (having worn them as enemy force on an ex, and worn by our people in Somalia back in ‘93) are not desert CADPAT, they‘re simply plain sand coloured combats (i.e. like our current OD combats, just sand colour)... How come our people in Afghanistan aren‘t wearing them?

Rob

 

[Jungle]

As many of you have stated, it is complete nonsense to have troops dressed in woodland camo in the desert; How long have we known about this deployment ? Was it that hard to contract a few thousand sets of tans (the old style) before the troops deployed ? I taught a sniper course and each candidate was GIVEN a set of tans as a base for a ghillie suit... why didn‘t we keep the tans at the national level until the desert cadpats were available ? The answer is simple: we have no strategic vision... "if we don‘t need it today, then let‘s get rid of it" Same thing happened to the M-72... most units still have not seen the M-203, but the M72 is gone.

 

[Korus]

All the pictures I‘ve seen of Canadians in Somalia where with green camo.. One picture really struck me.. It‘s all sand colour, except for a few green guys who stuck out..

But remember.. We don‘t need more funding for better equipment, we need better tactics! [/sarcasm]

 

[JRMACDONALD]

Jesus , guys-- wake up and smell the coffee!
Yes , it would be great to have a cbt uniform for every enviroment we run into, but look at the time lines. there is a CADPAT(AR) uniform in progress, but the focus is on just getting the normal stuff (CADPAT)out! Clothe the Soldier won‘t be finished for , at least , another 3-4years. this Afgahn deployment came up in the last 3 months!!! **** , I just got issued the last of my IECS, in OD!!( still missing one item!) Small aside- Does any body think
we ‘re re painting all those coyotes/ LAV/ Iltis we are going to use there? stop whining!!!

 

[enfield]

The Coyotes are being repainted.

Your right, Desert CADPAT should not be expected so soon after Green CADPAT. Of course, if this Tease the Soldier thing had been run and funded correctly, we would have had it all for awhile. I think they began to advertise CTS far to early - well before they could produce the results they were bragging about.

But, we‘ve had OD combats for a few decades now. AND NOWHERE IN CANADA IS THERE A STOCK OF DESERT COMBATS??!!
For the love of God... we only need two colours! Green and Brown!! Is it a surprise we might have to fight a war in a desert areas??
In my mind there is no excuse for the CF not to have at least one stock of desert combats somewhere in the system. Desert boots are somehow still kicking around...
Why in God‘s name do we keep winter white‘s around? For the past 12 years there has been a far higher probability of war in a desert than winter enviroment.

 

[portcullisguy]

I know funding is a big issue... and yes we should have proper clothing that fits the environment, but, I‘d like to hear what the troops over the water have to say about wearing the issued pattern material uniforms.

I mean, operationally, will it make that much of a difference?

First off, at night, no one can tell a green uniform from a sand one except in bright moonlight, and even then it‘s a tough one. If the troops spend the majority of the time in a camp environment, it won‘t make a lick of difference what colour your uniform is when the mortar shells drop inside the wire. The only time I can see where it matters is when it‘s time to do day light patrols on foot, outside of the safety of a forward base. How often are they doing this? Are they doing it with U.S. or just our own troops?

 

[Andyboy]

Should the troops have desert uniforms? Yes, probably, but where do they fall in the order of priorities? Before or after modern, effective, frag vests? There are troops there wearing old US PAGST vests! Before of after useful load bearing equipment? Do we delay the general issue of CADPAT to the troops so we can give everyone a set or two of the desert versions? If it was such an important priority why wasn‘t anyone asking about it BEFORE the deployment? Enfield asks a good question "Is it a surprise we might have to fight a war in a desert areas??" I think the answer is yes, it is a surprise. In fact I think it came as a pretty big surprise to the people who "make the decisions" that we might have to fight a war at all.

 

[centurion]

In order to get what‘s needed, equipment wise, no matter what it is, we need one thing first. A government that cares! Cretin and his merry band of lemmings will continue to neglect the military as long as he stays as dictator of Canada. Do you think he‘s going to gear the boys up in desert uniforms? Not while he sees nothing wrong with having our guys fly around in Sea Kings. He‘s a millstone around the neck of the populace.
If it‘s good for our guys, professionally, morally, ethically or otherwise, you can bet he won‘t give it to them. Not until someone is killed, then he‘ll pick a ministry to blame it on, give the head a patronage appt to the Bahamas, and call a study.
As long as this pompous, arrogant, self appointed despot is in charge, chortaling in his money room as the populace starves, we have no hope. And neither do the proud, willing men and women of our Canadian Armed Forces.