A Deeply Fractured US

[Quirky]

David Dorn's death really got me. I got to page 5 of a google search before an article with his name even came up.

It's a tough time right now, especially for Law Enforcement. Officers across the WORLD are paying for the incompetence of one (arguably 4) officer(s). We had a protest/march here where they were shouting things that weren't even applicable to Canadian Law Enforcement. I have to give credit to all the guys/gals showing up and putting on the uniform to go to work, especially right now when the community you serve, and often put your life on the line for, hates you.

It’s not the entire community, it’s just the whiny, self-entitled minority that has nothing better to do.

 

[Remius]

It’s not the entire community, it’s just the whiny, self-entitled minority that has nothing better to do.

Trying to see who you are referring to.  Are you saying that the black minority is self entitled or the left wing Starbucks types?

 

[Quirky]

Trying to see who you are referring to.  Are you saying that the black minority is self entitled or the left wing Starbucks types?

The low-mid 20s type that haven’t worked a day of their lives, pretending to know what black issues are and offering their “support” in these protests. These are the same social justice warriors who were quick to rat out Covid social distancing violators, but now have no problem marching in large crowds. All I see are whiny, spoiled brats both in Canada and the US in those crowds.

Remember 2016 when this whole BLM movement started and brought racism to an end?  :

 

[Remius]

The low-mid 20s type that haven’t worked a day of their lives, pretending to know what black issues are and offering their “support” in these protests. These are the same social justice warriors who were quick to rat out Covid social distancing violators, but now have no problem marching in large crowds. All I see are whiny, spoiled brats both in Canada and the US in those crowds.

Remember 2016 when this whole BLM movement started and brought racism to an end?  :

Thanks.  I was legitimately asking who you were referring to.  Thanks for the clarification. I’ve been having a lot of heated discussions about defunding police with some of those types.

But I do know and see a lot of hurting people willing to risk COVID in the hopes of real change.

 

[FJAG]

The low-mid 20s type that haven’t worked a day of their lives, pretending to know what black issues are and offering their “support” in these protests. These are the same social justice warriors who were quick to rat out Covid social distancing violators, but now have no problem marching in large crowds. All I see are whiny, spoiled brats both in Canada and the US in those crowds.

Remember 2016 when this whole BLM movement started and brought racism to an end?  :

Black Lives Matter started back in 2013 after Trayvon Martin and the Zimmerman acquittal. See here but it is the successor of numerous civil rights protest movement reaching back to the Civil War and earlier. Then and now the movement encompasses much more than the "whiny, spoiled brats" in their "low-mid 20s type that haven’t worked a day of their lives, pretending to know what black issues are". Just as an example there are more and more four-star generals who are speaking in support of the values that BLM propounds.

Military Times
Top military leaders speak out about racism in wake of George Floyd’s death in police custody

Zach England , Kyle Rempfer , Geoff Ziezulewicz , and Diana Stancy Correll
4 days ago

The military leader who spoke out against racism just over a month ago has become the latest member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to weigh in on how the military should react in the wake of national unrest sparked by the death of another black man in police custody.

His statement makes it a clean sweep of joint chiefs speaking up and caps a day of statements from nearly all of the military’s upper echelon leadership at a time when the nation is reeling from days of widespread unrest.

“Current events are a stark reminder that it is not enough for us to remove symbols that cause division — rather, we also must strive to eliminate division itself," Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. David Berger said in a statement Wednesday.
...

See whole article here

:cheers:

 

[Remius]

https://theappeal.org/minneapolis-city-council-members-announce-intent-to-disband-the-police-department-invest-in-proven-community-led-public-safety/

Should be interesting how this unfolds.

 

[stellarpanther]

https://theappeal.org/minneapolis-city-council-members-announce-intent-to-disband-the-police-department-invest-in-proven-community-led-public-safety/

Should be interesting how this unfolds.

Other city's are apparently considering the same thing.  I'm curious what exactly that means.  Maybe fire everyone and rebuild from the bottom up?

 

[Remius]

I thunk it was Camden that did that?

 

[Weinie]

https://theappeal.org/minneapolis-city-council-members-announce-intent-to-disband-the-police-department-invest-in-proven-community-led-public-safety/

Should be interesting how this unfolds.

Says the guy that lives far away from Minneapolis. If I was a law-abiding citizen in Minneapolis, I would be terrified for the ramifications of this.

 

[mariomike]

As a result, public health experts have long advocated for dispatching medical professionals and/or social workers, not armed police, to respond to calls related to substance use and mental health.
https://theappeal.org/minneapolis-city-council-members-announce-intent-to-disband-the-police-department-invest-in-proven-community-led-public-safety/

ie: Paramedics.

That's the way it is in Toronto. Not sure about other jurisdictions.

 

[Remius]

Says the guy that lives far away from Minneapolis. If I was a law-abiding citizen in Minneapolis, I would be terrified for the ramifications of this.

Ah so you live near or in Minneapolis then?  :

What make you think I’m for or against this?

 

[Ironman118]

ie: Paramedics.

That's the way it is in Toronto. Not sure about other jurisdictions.

Dispatching only paramedics and social workers won't work. We have a specialized unit that combines an officer with a mental health worker (not in service now due to COVID-19) that has proven to be very effective. Paramedics won't even check on people/enter a building where the patient is known (they have their own records database, similar to police) to have MHA issues without an officer present in my region. Sending a Paramedic or a Social worker alone to talk to an MHA person or someone going through crisis is absolutely a horrible idea, and if this goes into effect - it's going to take one of them dying for people to realize what a mistake it is, and with MHA calls skyrocketing, that's going to be quick.

As for disbanding an entire police service on account of 1 (or 4) members of your service? I think people are going to realize very quick how bad that is once that goes into effect. Homicides are going to sky-rocket. I guess town council has never read Lord Of the Flies...

 

[Jarnhamar]

With a crime rate of 50 per one thousand residents, Minneapolis has one of the highestcrime rates in America compared to all communities of all sizes - from the smallest towns to the very largest cities. One's chance of becoming a victim of either violent or propertycrime here is one in 20.


Good luck disbanding the police.

 

[Weinie]

Ah so you live near or in Minneapolis then?  :

What make you think I’m for or against this?

Perhaps you are a dispassionate observer. Your previous posts on this topic did not lead me to think that, you have been quite emphatic in your opinion. Describing potential outcomes in Minneapolis as "Interesting" is not likely the reaction that the majority of residents of the city will have to defunding police. I am watching the "de-funding" movement as the latest cause celebre. I would have a similar reaction should a proposal be brought forward in Ottawa. (not that close to Minneapolis).

Does that answer your question?

 

[FJAG]

Says the guy that lives far away from Minneapolis. If I was a law-abiding citizen in Minneapolis, I would be terrified for the ramifications of this.

You know I had that thought at first and then I started reading up about what "defunding the police" really means. Admittedly it means different things to different people but at its heart it does not include doing away with policing but rather replacing POLICING and much of the prison system with a Department of Public Safety which has a larger range of disciplines available to deal with non-crime social issues that the police all too often get involved in. Police and prisons continue to exist to deal with violent crime and investigations but at a reduced level freeing funds to provide more specialized resources available to take care of issues that don't need a heavy hand.

Much of the idea comes from this book: The End of Policing by Alex Vitale

There are obviously a lot of questions about how such a model would work. For me the idea is interesting and deserving of serious discussion.

In fact, since I have a dog-whistle issue of my own, it made me think about forming a movement to "Defund the Regular Force" and rebuild the DND/CAF structure from scratch.

;D

 

[Infanteer]

Agreed FJAG.  The importance is defining what the proposal actually entails.  The way it is portrayed by some makes me think the "defund" movement seems to be a case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  It amplifies (too many) unfortunate instances like the killing of George Floyd to be the totality of police activity.

Just watch an average episode of Cops - you want to send a social worker into the middle of a domestic dispute where one side may be armed?  How about sending a medical professional to deal with a mentally ill-person with access to a weapon?  What do we do when we have a dead medical professional?

Perhaps the police need to be able to secure the scene for specialist intervention where it makes sense.  Just like we don't expect the police to put out fires, etc, etc.  Have a "social intervention team" of medical and social specialists if that's what you want the city to divert funds to, but still ensure the police are securing the scene and prepared to intervene if threat to life and limb becomes apparent.  Just throwing it out there....

 

[GAP]

:goodpost:

 

[mariomike]

Paramedics won't even check on people/enter a building where the patient is known (they have their own records database, similar to police) to have MHA issues without an officer present in my region.

Like I said,

Not sure about other jurisdictions.

That was the SOP for the 36+ years I was on the job.

This is the current SOP. It came in 2010, after I retired.

In situations involving a violent or aggressive patient, the paramedic shall:
1. consider underlying organic disorders;
2. give particular attention to personal safety as per the General Measures Standard;
3. request police assistance on-scene;
4. wait for police assistance if,
a. there is an active shooter scenario, or
b. there is direct evidence of ongoing violence;
5. if electing to delay service as per paragraph 4 above, immediately notify CACC/ACS;
6. if the patient is uncooperative, elicit information from others at the scene; attempt to determine,
a. if illness, injury and/or alcohol/drug ingestion has triggered the present behaviour, and
b. whether there is a past history of violence;
7. be alert for behavioural signs of impending violence;
8. if confronted, seek a safe egress and attempt to withdraw;
9. if a safe withdrawal is not feasible, attempt to speak with and calm the patient; and
10. consider need for restraints as per paragraph 6 of the Mental Health Standard.
Basic

 

[Infanteer]

More to FJAG's point - society should consider what we are asking police to do.  The U.S. needs to reflect on why it has, by far, the highest rate of incarceration per capita in the world.

In many cases, it is asking the Police and Penal system to manage social issues, instead of figuring out an alternative way of managing the consequences and root causes of these issues.  I found the following site (and this link in particular) to be quite enlightening:

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/repeatarrests.html

 

[Kat Stevens]

I agree with all the celebrities on this list. Let’s start by shutting down the precincts that patrol these peoples neighbourhoods.

https://www.insider.com/celebrities-signed-an-open-letter-to-defund-police-budgets-2020-6#america-ferrera-used-her-hometown-of-los-angeles-as-an-example-of-why-she-was-advocating-to-decrease-police-budgets-8