A Deeply Fractured US

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Letting people kill and loot with impunity didn't work?  The shock....

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Letting people kill and loot with impunity didn't work?  The shock....

Well actually the protests and violence the past few days have been trending downwards, precisely because the Police finally stopped antagonizing the situation, thank goodness for that. 

 

[Weinie]

Well actually the protests and violence the past few days have been trending downwards, precisely because the Police finally stopped antagonizing the situation, arrested the perpetrators and looters, thank goodness for that.

FTFY

 

[FJAG]

Whoah! Whoah! Whoah!  A Curfew in Montreal !!!!!!

You want riots? You want revolution? You want civil war?

There isn't enough equipment in the CAF to make that happen.  ;D


Anecdote here: My wife is from Hamilton (yes, Ontario). When I lived at my parents home, we used to live in the north of Montreal. So, the first time my (then future) wife came to visit for the week-end, she wanted to take in a movie downtown. As per her choice, we went to the 18:15 showing (in Montreal, we would call that the kiddie show), then went for a bite and, at around 22:00, we are making our way back home on the Decarie expressway. She looks across the divider and it's like rush hour traffic going the other way, so she asks "where are all these people going?" Downtown for the evening I say, to get there before 22:00 or 23:00 on a week end is just not in, I say. You should have seen the look on her face.

In the end, it turned out OK - I even managed to get her to sit down for supper at home at a reasonable 19:00 to 19:30 time frame, but it took quite a few years.  :nod:

Spent a nice week in Madrid once. Supper before 22:00 was considered bad form.

:stirpot:

 

[brihard]

General rule of thumb, if you’re using force, better be prepared to make an arrest. Yeah, absolutely if someone’s in your face you can give them a push to open space, but you’re still accountable for what happens. There are other ways to skin that cat. Those officers will bear the onus of explaining why their force was lawful, and it will have to be limited to the context of the actually facts as known, apparent, or reasonably perceived to them at the time.

If you’re on the riot line and you’re the front rank, you keep your head and eyes up and keep moving forward. There are a lot of people right behind you who deal with injuries, prisoners, etc. You don’t get sucked in to the person on the ground; you take the ground past them and make a safe pocket for the cops and medics behind you to work.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I've looked at videos from 2 or 3 angles and in all of them the 75 year old guy is the only protester in sight. I'm sure there were a bunch more in front of them off camera but that line doesn't seem hard pressed or committed in the least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HFsRn-oKd4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ww-Xq0yZfw

I'm armchair quarterbacking here, I haven't did serious riot control training in 10 years.
The cops don't have shields, some don't appear to have batons. Some have their face shields up, some don't appear to have shin and elbow guards. Loose formation. I think it's safe to say they weren't in the shit.

For argument sake lets say it was just a rookie cop who got a little shovy and didn't mean it. Lets even say the guy was one of those douche's that get in your face and want you to put your hands on them so they can make a scene.

Maybe the big problem here is that the police departments first reaction was to put out "he tripped". Kind of like someone slipping in the shower and accidentally having the door close on their head 5 times. It took a video for them to fess up. It makes you wonder about other cases where someone "tripped".

 

[Scoobs]

Jarnhamar,

If you let the video go, you will see the police arrest more protesters right after they pass the man lying on the ground. 

I'm from that area, across the river from Buffalo, i.e. Fort Erie.  My info is that Buffalo has been relatively calm compared to other areas of the States, so it matches how the police were equipped.  Thus, it was surprising to see the Buffalo policemen act that way (to me it looks like only one guy really pushes the old man, while the other policeman just puts his baton up).

It is also my understanding that the two cops charged are not rookies.  In fact, the one who doesn't actually do the pushing (the baton up) is ex-US military. 

To the other posters:

I've seen the comments above and have debated back and forth with my Fort Erie friends about the elderly man.  Some above and some of my friends have stated that since the elderly man was an "agitator" or regular protester this somehow justifies him being pushed.  It doesn't.  No one can debate that the man was NOT being violent.  Thus, to respond with ANY level of violence is unacceptable, even if the man is an agitator or regular protester.  Sure, arrest the man, but not violently.

As well, some of the scenarios being spoken of above are outrageous, such as "pulling guns on the cops".  Watch the video again.  The man is holding a motorcycle helmet in his left hand and a phone in his right.  No gun.  No motion for a gun.  No more hands to reach for a gun (unless the guy has a third arm that we can't see in the video).  Why don't we stop with the silly scenarios and deal with facts.

 

[FJAG]

By DAVID MARTIN CBS NEWS June 6, 2020, 8:39 PM
Trump demanded 10,000 active-duty troops deploy to streets in heated Oval Office meeting

In a heated and contentious debate in the Oval Office last Monday morning, President Trump demanded the military put 10,000 active duty troops into the streets immediately, a senior administration official told CBS News. Attorney General William Barr, Defense Secretary Mark Esper and Joint Chiefs Chairman Mark Milley objected to the demand, the official said. 

In an attempt to satisfy Mr. Trump's demand, Esper and Milley used a call with the nation's governors later that morning to implore them to call up the National Guard in their own states, the official said.  If these governors didn't "call up the Guard, we'd have (active duty) troops all over the country," this official said. 

That same day, the Pentagon started bringing in 1,600 active-duty troops to bases just outside the District of Columbia.  Late that afternoon, Esper and Milley were on their way to the FBI's Washington Field Office, where the command center for the military and law enforcement response to the protests was located, the official said. En route, they received a call to come to the White House to give the President an update. 

They did not brief the president, but they were asked to stay for his address in the Rose Garden and then to accompany him on the walk across Lafayette Park to St. John's Church. Milley had been wearing his dress uniform in the morning but changed to his combat fatigues because he knew it was going to be a long night at the FBI command center, the official said. Neither man realized the purpose of the walk was to stage a photo op in front of the church.

On Wednesday morning, after two nights of peaceful protests, Esper ordered 700 troops from the 82nd Airborne Division to return to Fort Bragg, and then delivered a statement in the Pentagon briefing room that he was opposed to using the Insurrection Act to send active-duty troops into the streets. 

Esper was saying in public exactly what he had been saying in private to the president, but Mr. Trump was furious with him at a White House meeting later that morning, the official said. 

After the meeting, Esper reversed his decision to send the 700 troops home – not because of the president's anger, but because he had received reports that protesters were planning a million man march on Washington for Saturday. 

After another night of no violence in the streets, Esper again gave the order to send the 700 paratroopers back to Bragg and on Friday gave another order to withdraw all but 350 of the troops who had been placed on alert. 

The remaining 350 are members of the Old Guard permanently based at Fort Myer, Virginia, just across the Potomac River from the District, and they were placed on a lower state of alert.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-demanded-10000-active-duty-troops-deploy-to-streets-in-heated-oval-office-meeting/

:cheers:

 

[FJAG]

Barr attempts to distance himself from call to remove peaceful protesters in DC before Trump photo-op

By Megan Trimble, CNN
Updated 11:03 PM ET, Sat June 6, 2020

(CNN)Attorney General William Barr on Friday tried to distance himself from law enforcement's violent confrontation and removal of peaceful protesters from Lafayette Square earlier this week, saying he did not give the final order to clear the demonstration even as the White House has placed the decision on Barr's shoulders amid ongoing fallout.

"They had the Park Police mounted unit ready, so it was just a matter of execution. So, I didn't just say to them, 'Go,'" Barr said in an interview with The Associated Press.

"I'm not involved in giving tactical commands like that," he told the AP. "I was frustrated and I was also worried that as the crowd grew, it was going to be harder and harder to do. So my attitude was get it done, but I didn't say, 'Go do it.'"

The attorney general told the AP that a Park Police tactical commander gave the order for law enforcement to move in, but that he never spoke to that commander.

CNN has reached out to the White House for comment.

The comments mark the attorney general's most clear attempt yet to pass responsibility for the widely condemned move by law enforcement agencies to clash with peaceful protesters, while still embracing the militarization in the nation's capital.
...

See full article here https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/politics/william-barr-dc-protests-white-house/index.html

:cheers:

 

[Halifax Tar]

No it doesn't.  That's the same logic that people use to defend the Police involved in George Floyd's death.  It's why we are in this mess in the first place. 

If you are going to arrest someone, arrest them, don't  bust their skull all over the pavement, then not provide first aid to them and treat them like a piece of trash.

My father recently retired from Corrections Canada as a warden of one of the many federal institutions around Kingston, Ont.  The job nearly killed him, I am glad to retired when he did, his health has drastically taken a turn for the better since.

We have talked at length, over glasses of Wisers, about his job and experiences.  He would often tell me guards were worse to deal with than the inmates.  Especially the newer bread joining.  He summation is that this new bread only wanted to be guards to beat people up and visit violence unhindered.  His police friends would often tell similar stories of new officers who just want to crack skulls and power trip on their badge. 

I see it in the news now, officers beating or shooting people when, and I know I am arm chair quarterbacking, when it looks to me like a cool head and the ability to uses ones words might have saved the situation. 

I don’t know, I have had interactions with cops and they aren’t generally good.  They seem to enter situations with preconceived notions and a already figured out finality, instead of listening gathering their information and moving forward from there.  A glowing example of this happened a couple of years ago.  My wife, my best friend and I were stopped at a construction stop sign outside Stad in Halifax.  We got rear ended by a dude, pretty hard.  The foreman of the worksite came over and said he saw everything and told us not to move, called the cops, set up pylons around us and started redirecting traffic.  The dude who hit us approached us told me and the foreman his wife was a judge, there was no damage to our vehicles and we should just go our separate ways.  I walk to the back of his vehicle took a picture of his plate and said no, we stay. 

The police officer arrives, and starts yelling at me and the foreman about blocking traffic and the tells the dude who hit me to take off.  He does.  Then she orders me to pull up a side street and wait while she does some paper work.  She came back and told me to drive away it was a nothing accident.  The foreman happened to be close and he came over as I was tell her no, you will do your investigation and take down statements and then I had my wife write down her name, rank and shift supervisors name and rank; she did not like this. 

She went back to her cruiser and talked to some of the workers who witnesses it, and went back to her cruiser again.  Then she came back to me laughing and apologizing. 

About a year earlier the three of us (Wife, best friend and I) had been on my deck having a wet when we noticed my neighbor getting beat up in their house.  We called the cops they came and did what they do.  This cop had interpreted that as me having beaten up my wife and my best friend was a witness and she was digging down that hole chasing a ghost.

I called her shift supervisor and logged a complaint.  I don’t know what came of it.  My insurance company was incensed at the actions of the officer and went after everyone on god’s green earth, as insurance companies tend to do, and I got a new vehicle.

Again, a cool head, a mature open mind, and the ability to use ones words would have saved allot in that scenario.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

We have talked at length, over glasses of Wisers, about his job and experiences.  He would often tell me guards were worse to deal with than the inmates.  Especially the newer bread joining.  He summation is that this new bread only wanted to be guards to beat people up and visit violence unhindered.  His police friends would often tell similar stories of new officers who just want to crack skulls and power trip on their badge. 

Yup.....just like a new Infantryman can't wait to get "over there" and have the bullets fly,  ....  until they do, ....then they just want a quiet watch, get home safe, and get paid.

Question for you,  first of all congrats on him retiring, but  ask him if he ever worked a floor for a few years as a guard, chances are he did not, Corrections is famous for importing managers from nice clean office environments and wondering why there's such a disconnect.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yup.....just like a new Infantryman can't wait to get "over there" and have the bullets fly,  ....  until they do, ....then they just want a quiet watch, get home safe, and get paid.

Question for you,  first of all congrats on him retiring, but  ask him if he ever worked a floor for a few years as a guard, chances are he did not, Corrections is famous for importing managers from nice clean office environments and wondering why there's such a disconnect.

Nope he started out as CX when he was 24.  Worked his way from bottom to top.  Many stops along the way.  Keeper, parole officer, CORCAN, regional HQ; just a few of the spots he worked.  Not 100% with the corrections lingo.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Excellent.....here's to a long and restful retirement.

 

[Ironman118]

I think using blanket statements like "all new young officers just want to power trip from the badge" aren't appropriate. I can't speak for all Police Services but at mine, the younger guys coming in have a great work ethic and bust their butt on calls, the old guard are the ones who actually did power trip on their badge and do "sketchy" things back when it was okay to look the other way - and those guys are retiring out now. I'd celebrate more younger people coming into the ranks rather than grouping them all up in one bag...I can't help notice the irony of saying officers have pre-conceived notions about certain people or situations - but immediately having pre-conceived notions about a group of people(officers) based on their age or sex. 

 

[mariomike]

This hurt my brain to watch, this guy actually is advocating to basically abolish police forces, and give the money to communities cause crime will magically stop some how.

It begins...

NYC Mayor

This morning we committed to move resources from the NYPD to youth and social services as part of our City’s budget.

Our young people need to be reached, not policed.

We can do this AND keep our city safe.
https://twitter.com/NYCMayor/status/1269650502284972032

 

[YZT580]

Listening to a Cleveland based radio station this a.m.  According to their news cast the coroners report out of Minni says that the guy didn't die from asphyxiation although final cause of death yet to be determined.  The knee on the neck did not cause death.  He had a mitt full of drugs in his system and according to the report  was foaming at the mouth when cops arrived.  They have not released the video from the officer's body cam but have totally let the bystander's camera work stand as evidence.  The phone call for an ambulance was placed within a few minutes of the police arriving which would be indicative of officers doing their job right.  Kneeling on his neck, provided full weight was not applied would be one way to immobilise him without inviting a struggle or causing injury.  True, false I don't know but if true it means this whole thing is contrived to put police in an impossible position. 

 

[Ironman118]

Listening to a Cleveland based radio station this a.m.  According to their news cast the coroners report out of Minni says that the guy didn't die from asphyxiation although final cause of death yet to be determined.  The knee on the neck did not cause death.  He had a mitt full of drugs in his system and according to the report  was foaming at the mouth when cops arrived.  They have not released the video from the officer's body cam but have totally let the bystander's camera work stand as evidence.  The phone call for an ambulance was placed within a few minutes of the police arriving which would be indicative of officers doing their job right.  Kneeling on his neck, provided full weight was not applied would be one way to immobilise him without inviting a struggle or causing injury.  True, false I don't know but if true it means this whole thing is contrived to put police in an impossible position.

No officer is ever trained to kneel on a suspect/subjects neck, at least not in America. Upper shoulder or lower back. Regardless of the how and why's, the optics (law enforcement is 50% optics these days...) are bad. Even if they were to release a full report saying his death was caused by drug OD, noone would take it seriously...too many people are invested in this guys death, regardless of the fact that he was a convicted criminal or not..SOP's and use of force exist for a reason.

 

[Quirky]

No officer is ever trained to kneel on a suspect/subjects neck, at least not in America. Upper shoulder or lower back. Regardless of the how and why's, the optics (law enforcement is 50% optics these days...) are bad. Even if they were to release a full report saying his death was caused by drug OD, noone would take it seriously...too many people are invested in this guys death, regardless of the fact that he was a convicted criminal or not..SOP's and use of force exist for a reason.

The media and court of public opinion has already convicted and sentenced those officers. It won’t matter what actual facts come out of this, people are inherently stupid and react with their emotions and feelings rather than reasoning. There have already been more black deaths from these “protests” , riots and lootings than from officers killing black people all year. The constant online and news narrative that fuels anger and fear is the real crime. Facts and statistics don’t matter anymore.

 

[mariomike]

Bad week for Confederate statues. Even Texas Rangers, "One riot. One Ranger.", are coming down,
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22texas+ranger%22+statue&sxsrf=ALeKk00yUX-OLCDqU_MAgmtvQ_NLc1-sfA:1591553261613&source=lnms&tbm=isch&tbs=qdr:w&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPtbL2pfDpAhWFhXIEHdZLDr0Q_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=1280&bih=641

Long way from the pre-Rodney King era,

"Give no slack and take no sh^t from anyone. Confront and command. Control the streets at all times. Always be aggressive. Stop crimes before they happen. Seek them out. Shake them down. Make that arrest."
The LAPD's Century of War in the City of Dreams

 

[Ironman118]

The media and court of public opinion has already convicted and sentenced those officers. It won%u2019t matter what actual facts come out of this, people are inherently stupid and react with their emotions and feelings rather than reasoning. There have already been more black deaths from these %u201Cprotests%u201D , riots and lootings than from officers killing black people all year. The constant online and news narrative that fuels anger and fear is the real crime. Facts and statistics don%u2019t matter anymore.

David Dorn's death really got me. I got to page 5 of a google search before an article with his name even came up.

It's a tough time right now, especially for Law Enforcement. Officers across the WORLD are paying for the incompetence of one (arguably 4) officer(s). We had a protest/march here where they were shouting things that weren't even applicable to Canadian Law Enforcement. I have to give credit to all the guys/gals showing up and putting on the uniform to go to work, especially right now when the community you serve, and often put your life on the line for, hates you.