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A Deeply Fractured US

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Brad Sallows said:
I'm ordinarily calm to the point of indifference about these things, but not now.  A lot of rushes to judgement are being made by armchair observers, particularly media and politicians.  I doubt the politicians are extensively briefed and walked through whatever visual evidence has been collected.  I choose not to give them the benefit of the doubt for being wise and prudent; rather, I assume they are pandering to the mob.

Police can always choose to follow their orders in a way that minimizes physical and legal risk.

We are a long way from it, but an undesired outcome could emerge: the people adamant that military force is the last resort might, as a consequence of their own short-sightedness and lack of resolve while the problems are still manageable, unexpectedly be confronted with a shortage of police and nothing but the last resort.

Yes, let me guess, they were just following orders.  Where have I heard that one before?

75 years old, pushed to the ground, blood gushing all over the ground with a TBI no less.  His crime, standing in the way and being out past curfew. 

What a proportionate and reasonable response. 

Edited:

Because I'm actually upset about this and how stupid and senseless it is.

The worst part is BPD even tried to sweep it under the rug but were rightly called out.
 
Let me guess, you think he went towards the police past curfew to ask for a light for his cigarette.  Much as this was done wrong, if you play stupid games you can expect to win stupid prizes.
 
Anyone who thinks DOXing a guy and exposing his entire family to harassment and threats is okay can take a giant flying fuck at a rolling donut.
 
Whats really crazy is the suggestion to eliminate all police departments and replace them with something like an armed militia.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Let me guess, you think he went towards the police past curfew to ask for a light for his cigarette.  Much as this was done wrong, if you play stupid games you can expect to win stupid prizes.

So you think it's ok to hit a senior citizen?  This is exactly why the protests haven't been peaceful.  People protest peacefully and they get dispersed anyways.  At least the Buffalo Police proved one thing:  they aren't racist, they will assault all people equally.

They also have no problem trying to direct a false narrative with the tweet they made and were thankfully called out for.

tomahawk6 said:
Whats really crazy is the suggestion to eliminate all police departments and replace them with something like an armed militia.

Who is suggesting that?  What people want are actual professional police and not some of the cochon de merde we see right now with systemic racism, corruption, bigotry and abuse of authority that we see in certain PD.

Is it too much to ask?

 

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Train 'em and pay 'em like professionals and you'd probably get what you ask...
 
I've expressed my opinion earlier about the Lafayette Park incident but quite honestly I see the Buffalo situation differently.

Firstly in this case the old gentleman is approaching an advancing police line with what looks to me some purpose. I'm not sure what exactly he's holding in his hands but it looks like a pad and a pen or pencil and he gesticulates at the two officers with some purpose as well at which point one of the officers pushes him back (not pushed him down as some of the press reports say, but back) and not very forcefully. Unfortunately the old gentleman over rotates backward and strikes his head on the ground.

Again, IMHO while this was a use of force, I don't consider what happened here an abuse or overuse of force in the circumstance. It struck me as an appropriate use of force which had a bad outcome. That does happen on occasion and I agree with some of you that in this case the press is doing a bit of a pile on, undoubtedly because of the man's age and the degree of his injuries. The press does hyperventilate at times.

I'm really not sure what drove this man to approach and confront the police line in the way he did but I saw nothing either way that anyone did that I would consider outrageous. The same with the actions about providing first aid. From the description (as I don't see all of it on video) appropriate procedures were followed.

That said, suspending the two officers while an investigation is conducted appears reasonable by most police departments' standards where a citizen is hurt during a police interaction. The subsequent "job action" by the remaining 57 officers on the team seems to me to be a typical union/brotherhood response to the suspensions.

This is not one of those cases where I'm going to mount my steed of moral outrage.

:cheers:
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Let me guess, you think he went towards the police past curfew to ask for a light for his cigarette.  Much as this was done wrong, if you play stupid games you can expect to win stupid prizes.

Bruce,

put things in perspective.  The man did not approach the police fast.  The man was non-violent.  The man was clearly an elderly man.  As well, "stupid games"?  So you equate peaceful, civil disobedience to "stupid games"?  Come on.  We're all still in or are veterans.  We all know that with power comes responsibility and proper discretion as to know when to use that power.  The police have an incredible amount of power and failed to properly exercise it responsibly.  This could have been handled much better by them.  The police, after warning him to leave (which they did), could have easily arrested him for violation of the curfew.  No one can justify using physical violence on a person, elderly or not, if that person is not being violent. 

I'm from across the Niagara River (Fort Erie) and was born a few miles from the Peace Bridge.  Buffalo has not generally seen the type of violence that the rest of the US has, so I have no idea why the police acted this way.  This was handled extremely poorly by the Buffalo police, from the one officer who shoved the man, to the supervisors telling the officers to push the man, to the officer who submitted a false report stating the elderly man "tripped and fell", to the 57 ERT members who resigned from their unit, and finally to the head of the police union and his utterly stupid comments. 

There's a time to use physical violence.  The police have tough jobs, but they also need to use that power responsibly.  They did not do that this time.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Train 'em and pay 'em like professionals and you'd probably get what you ask...

The Officer in question makes $81,000.00 a year.  Average income in US is $31,099.00.  I think he is appropriately compensated.

FJAG said:
I've expressed my opinion earlier about the Lafayette Park incident but quite honestly I see the Buffalo situation differently.

Firstly in this case the old gentleman is approaching an advancing police line with what looks to me some purpose. I'm not sure what exactly he's holding in his hands but it looks like a pad and a pen or pencil and he gesticulates at the two officers with some purpose as well at which point one of the officers pushes him back (not pushed him down as some of the press reports say, but back) and not very forcefully. Unfortunately the old gentleman over rotates backward and strikes his head on the ground.

Again, IMHO while this was a use of force, I don't consider what happened here an abuse or overuse of force in the circumstance. It struck me as an appropriate use of force which had a bad outcome. That does happen on occasion and I agree with some of you that in this case the press is doing a bit of a pile on, undoubtedly because of the man's age and the degree of his injuries. The press does hyperventilate at times.

I'm really not sure what drove this man to approach and confront the police line in the way he did but I saw nothing either way that anyone did that I would consider outrageous. The same with the actions about providing first aid. From the description (as I don't see all of it on video) appropriate procedures were followed.

That said, suspending the two officers while an investigation is conducted appears reasonable by most police departments' standards where a citizen is hurt during a police interaction. The subsequent "job action" by the remaining 57 officers on the team seems to me to be a typical union/brotherhood response to the suspensions.

This is not one of those cases where I'm going to mount my steed of moral outrage.

:cheers:

I actually figure legally they will be just fine.  But just because something is legal doesn't make it right.  Just because something is the law doesn't mean it is actually just.
 
My 2 cents of the Buffalo video.

While I am a fairly pro law enforcement guy, and work in law enforcement - I 100% have to violently disagree with the conduct of the Buffalo officers.

An elderly man, who wasn't behaving violently, moving quickly, or holding any sort of weapon - was shoved backwards with enough force that his smashed off the pavement and he immediately started bleeding from the ears.  Holy crap...


Just because there are protests happening nearby, and just because of the current situation at hand, does NOT give someone the excuse - lawful or not - to behave that way towards another.  Period.

What happens if he dies from his injuries?  Bleeding profusely from the ears almost immediately after hitting his head?  We've all seen & heard of people dying or going into comas for head trauma significantly less than that...


They could have taken him by the arm, and stepped to the side with him.  Removing him from the path of the group of officers.  They could have stopped and spoken to him while the other officers move around them.  But instead, they shove him backwards pretty abruptly and now someone's grandpa might potentially die because of this macho bulls**t.

It wasn't some millenial in their face with a sign.  It wasn't some protestor screaming in their face with a loudspeaker.  It was a 75 year old man, who simply approached them. 

Inexcuseable.




Bruce, I am a law enforcement guy, and I do tend to agree with you on most things.  In this particular matter, I have to respectfully disagree.

You say "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."  I agree.  However, I think it was the officers playing the stupid game here. 

While I'm not sure which model of Use of Force they train on, I don't think any of them allow for that kind of escalation and poor judgement.  Especially at a protest about police violence, in which everybody has a camera and everybody is waiting for the police to escalate, as it will further justify the cause of the protest.


Shoving an elderly man and causing him significant injuries where there wasn't any requirement for violence, AT A PROTEST ABOUT POLICE BRUTALITY NONETHELESS - that was the stupid game.    The charges they face, especially if he dies?  That's their stupid prize.    :2c:
 
Every time police enforce a law, they are following orders.  Every time they don't get complete co-operation and have to escalate, they are following orders and procedures.  It can easily look overdone; sometimes it is overdone.  Most of the times we've discussed it here, we've agreed - I thought - that ultimately the citizens make the choices to create situations in which police feel they have to do something to establish control or distance.  That's why one of the reforms I like is the decriminalization of a lot of chickenshit that politicians insist on.

Out of hundreds of thousands - millions? - of uses of force per year, some are likely to result in injuries disproportionate to the application of force.  The element of chance can never be eliminated.

The officer(s) shoved him, by chance the man lost his footing - I wouldn't call it "tripped", but much the same thing - failed to break his fall backwards in any way, and cracked his skull sharply on the concrete.  A similar thing has happened to me a couple of times when a backward edge on a snowboard dug in - insanely painful contacts at two points on near-ice re-frozen snow (butt and back of head).  All just a sequence of unlucky events cascading from one mild use of force which should have ended with the man staggering back a pace or two.

The alternative:

"Move back, sir".

"No".

"OK, carry on through our lines or approach as close as you please to me and my equipment.  Have a good day."

...

"I'm arresting you for reckless driving.  Put your hands behind your back, sir."

"No."

"OK, have a good day."

...

etc.
 
We all know that "following orders" is not a defence for an illegal action, both for the police and for us.  As for the actual orders, the police were told to clear the area, but also use common sense.  If a police officer cannot realize that there are clear alternatives to pushing someone who is being non-violent, then that police officer should quit.  The police could have easily detained this man, i.e. one policeman arrests him while the others keep moving forward to clear the area.  FYI that the Buffalo police did arrest 5 people in this protest and if you let the video keep going past the point where the man strikes his head on the ground, you clearly see them arresting a protester WITHOUT pushing him to the ground.  Common sense was lacking and proper application of force was not utilized by the policeman who pushed the man.
 
I think most of us agree, 99% of the time if I see someone getting their butt kicked by the police, I just assume they had it coming.  Unless it's something absolutely absurd, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the officer.


In this circumstance though, I have to disagree.


Like I said...they could have taken him by the arm, and stepped aside to talk with him.  They could had an officer or two stand and chat with him, while the rest of the group carried on to where they were going.  He's a senior, and his physical condition should automatically be something they notice and respect.  (You don't go hands on with a grandma the same way you do as a 25yo crackhead)

Falling back on your snowboard and hitting your head, isn't quite the same thing as getting shoved backwards/off balance by a group of cops and smashing your head on the concrete when your clearly a senior.  And then have that same group continue on their way, as you lay there bleeding profusely from the ears.



Like I said, most of the time (here in Canada) I am happy to give the benefit of the doubt to the officer if some idiot ends up getting smacked upside the head. 

This isn't one of those situations though.  And their timing COULD NOT BE DUMBER than doing that to someone who wasn't presenting a physical threat, at a protest about police violence.
 
I did say this was done wrong did I not?  No taccom, no clear direction, and if he had to go down he gets pulled in not pushed out.  But my premise still stands, he played a stupid game and he won a stupid prize.  Unintended consequences...
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
The Officer in question makes $81,000.00 a year. 

Where did you pick that up?  I got 44, 000 for an average patrolman.

Edit:. Found one thats says 54,000 also.
 
CBH99 said:
I think most of us agree, 99% of the time if I see someone getting their butt kicked by the police, I just assume they had it coming.  Unless it's something absolutely absurd, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the officer.


In this circumstance though, I have to disagree.


Like I said...they could have taken him by the arm, and stepped aside to talk with him.  They could had an officer or two stand and chat with him, while the rest of the group carried on to where they were going.  He's a senior, and his physical condition should automatically be something they notice and respect.  (You don't go hands on with a grandma the same way you do as a 25yo crackhead)

Falling back on your snowboard and hitting your head, isn't quite the same thing as getting shoved backwards/off balance by a group of cops and smashing your head on the concrete when your clearly a senior.  And then have that same group continue on their way, as you lay there bleeding profusely from the ears.



Like I said, most of the time (here in Canada) I am happy to give the benefit of the doubt to the officer if some idiot ends up getting smacked upside the head. 

This isn't one of those situations though.  And their timing COULD NOT BE DUMBER than doing that to someone who wasn't presenting a physical threat, at a protest about police violence.

And to reiterate how utterly brain dead those Officers were, a picture of last night's protest where that gentleman was gravely injured:
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And a picture of the results of those actions today:

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"Just following orders" ... :facepalm:
 
Mr Floyd was arrested for trying to pass a counterfeit bill. Rather than arrest why not take his information and issue a summons instead of treating the man like felon ?
 
tomahawk6 said:
Mr Floyd was arrested KILLED for ALLEGEDLY trying to pass a counterfeit bill. Rather than arrest why not take his information and issue a summons instead of treating the man like felon ?

TFTFY
 
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