A Deeply Fractured US

[Blackadder1916]

>does the electoral college represent the people or the state?

Both, designed (as noted above) to secure the consent of small states to enter into a federation of equals.

Designed?  Not so much a design as a compromise.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/five-common-misconceptions-about-electoral-college/602596/

. . .

Many supporters of the Electoral College assume that the debate about presidential selection at the Constitutional Convention, like the debate today, focused on whether the president should be chosen by the Electoral College or by a nationwide popular vote.

But as tempting as it is to read history in the light of contemporary concerns, the debate at the convention focused on a different issue: Should Congress choose the president? Both the Virginia Plan and the New Jersey Plan, the two primary alternatives at the Convention, proposed that Congress select the president. This was unsurprising because in most states at the time, the legislature chose the governor. On June 1, the convention voted 8–2 that Congress should elect the president, and the delegates would affirm that decision on three other occasions.

The frequency with which the delegates revisited the issue reveals not their confidence but their dissatisfaction. Most delegates wanted the executive to check legislative usurpations and block unjust or unwise laws, but they feared that dependence on the legislature for election—and possible reelection—would compromise the executive’s independence. Some delegates hoped to avoid this danger by limiting the president to a single term, but as Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania observed, this could deprive the nation of a highly qualified executive, eliminate the hope of continuation in office as a spur to good behavior, and encourage the executive to “make hay while the sun shines.” James Madison added that election by the legislature would “agitate and divide the legislature so much that the public interest would materially suffer” and might invite the intervention of foreign powers seeking to influence the choice. 

The difficulty lay in finding an alternative to legislative selection, and the delegates considered and rejected various possibilities, including popular election. Ultimately, perhaps in desperation, they referred the issue to the Committee on Unfinished Parts. On September 4, less than two weeks before the convention ended, the committee proposed the Electoral College. Its proposal mirrored the states’ distribution of power in Congress; each state had as many electoral votes as it had members of Congress. But because the electors dispersed after voting for the president, the Electoral College did not threaten the independence of the executive. With only minor adjustments—most notably, the House replaced the Senate as the body that would select the president if a majority of electors failed to agree on a candidate—the convention endorsed the proposal.

. . .

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Not so much a design as a compromise.

Why is the result of prolonged negotiations not a design?

 

[Brad Sallows]

"Is is still working?"

Yes.  Better than ever.  It's preventing slightly more than half of the country from imposing revolutionary changes on the other slightly less than half.

It's also ensuring totally chickenshit ideas are stillborn.  Example: Schumer's recent resolution for the Senate.  McConnell was willing to go along with one that didn't try to poke Trump with a stick, but no - mere support for peaceable assembly and condemnation of lawless wasn't good enough.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

City Council in Minneapolis is looking to disband the Minneapolis Police Department.  The Police Department has already had ties cut with Parks & Recreation and School Boards.

https://www.insider.com/minneapolis-city-council-members-look-to-disband-police-department-2020-6

It seems the Police Union is out of control and the only option seems to be to blow the entire thing up.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

City Council in Minneapolis is looking to disband the Minneapolis Police Department.  The Police Department has already had ties cut with Parks & Recreation and School Boards.

https://www.insider.com/minneapolis-city-council-members-look-to-disband-police-department-2020-6

It seems the Police Union is out of control and the only option seems to be to blow the entire thing up.

Good....just a point, Unions don't get 'out of control', they get let 'out of control'.

 

[Jarnhamar]

City Council in Minneapolis is looking to disband the Minneapolis Police Department. 

That will be interesting.

I've been watching a lot of protest videos and I noticed that when someone starts really get out of control people in the crowd are commonly saying "someone call the police".

 

[Ralph]

That will be interesting.

I've been watching a lot of protest videos and I noticed that when someone starts really get out of control people in the crowd are commonly saying "someone call the police".

Oh yeah? Probably like in this case...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-police-suspension-shoving-man-trnd/index.html

 

[Jarnhamar]

Oh yeah? Probably like in this case...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-police-suspension-shoving-man-trnd/index.html

That's a bad example of what I was talking about. Really nothing to do with it. But it's an awesome example of what's wrong with policing. Above the old man being shoved down is this.

Based on initial video, police issued a statement that said the man tripped and fell, DeGeorge said.
After more videos became available, police amended that statement, and Police Commissioner Byron Lockwood suspended the officers and opened an investigation, he said.
"The department moved swiftly" and "corrected" the information, DeGeorge said.

Seems like more and more police are getting too comfortable making bs excuses for bad behavior.

Would the protests and riots (and looting) be happening if someone didn't actually catch Floyds treatment on video? I can only imagine what the Minneapolis police would have put out as a statement.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"City Council in Minneapolis is looking to disband the Minneapolis Police Department."

Do they have the votes?  I suppose Minneapolis can be the horrible warning.

There are two primary interpretations of "defund the police" that I have read.  One is the anarchist/minarchist literal interpretation: tear it down and try something new (the Law of Righteousness ensures that whatever arises will be an improvement).  The second is about reallocation of resources from police to other agencies to deal with things the police should not be asked to do (and probably do not want to do).

Mentioned here are some reforms, some of which would require "defunding" (reallocation).

 

[Good2Golf]

That's a bad example of what I was talking about. Really nothing to do with it. But it's an awesome example of what's wrong with policing. Above the old man being shoved down is this.

Seems like more and more police are getting too comfortable making bs excuses for bad behavior.

Would the protests and riots (and looting) be happening if someone didn't actually catch Floyds treatment on video? I can only imagine what the Minneapolis police would have put out as a statement.

Interesting video, up until the videographer got the “Nothing to see here, move on!” arm from an officer.  While the police kept walking (at least one appears to have pushed a buddy onwards after he looked to be further engaging the old man as he bled), the soldiers immediately pulled out and knelt down to triage the man.  Good show on them for displaying professionalism and caring. :nod:

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Given the current height of the US crises surrounding racial injustices, discrimination, the BLM movement, etc. this is an interesting perspective/breakdown by Brene Brown on the US “system.”, which she shared via social media. Agree or disagree with the issues as she presents them, she raises some thought-provoking points. She’s caucasian.

“C. Brené Brown PhD, LMSW is a professor, lecturer, author, and podcast host. Since 2016, Brown has held the Brené Brown Endowed Chair at the University of Houston's Graduate College of Social Work. She is also a visiting professor in management at McCombs School of Business at the University of Texas at Austin.”

From the dehumanizing language and policy of this administration, to the history of white women using the performative “quiver of fear” when calling the police on black men, to police brutality, the system is working exactly how it was designed.

The system is not broken. This is the expansive and intricate system of dehumanization that was constructed to support white supremacy and slavery. Like every genocide in recorded history, racism started with dehumanization. 

The system is more complex now and supported by policy. One thing remains at the center: We, the white folks, are the conduit for the system. It was built to serve us. When we do nothing it surges through us. To end racism, we have to break the system. We have to see it and fight against it - we have to be anti-racist. There are many ways to break and rebuild. But here’s what I know for sure: 

The most important anti-racism work I’ve done over the past 20 years and that I’m still doing (every single day) is taught and led by people with the lived experience of racial oppression - NOT white people. This includes my professors, writers, activists, bosses, and mentors. For me, it’s also about seeing, sharing, and honoring the lived experiences of my friends whose realities are/were clearly different than mine.

Our job is to seek out the teaching, value it, submit to the pain of learning without asking our teachers to absolve us or add our emotions to their load, and know that being held accountable is hard and painful. And we have to act.

There are many teachers who are leading the way. Here are some teachers that I follow and who are doing critical work right now.

Austin Channing Brown (the The Next Question)

Dr. Bernice King (on MSNBC today at 1:45EST and has an important series on FB)

Dr. Clint Smith (June 3 event)

Prof. Ibram Kendi (on Unlocking Us this week)

Rachel Cargle (Public address on revolution available now)

If you know of other teachers - please leave them in the comments and we'll put together a list.

Amplify their voices and their work. Buy their books. Take their classes. Break the system.”

Statements such as these are obviously going to cause a stir within US borders especially, but not the first time this type of attention has been brought towards racial divides, the causes, what perpetuates them and so forth. I do believe it’s helpful for many US citizens when there’s acknowledgment by the caucasian population of imbalances within “the system” if there’s ever to be any hope of lessening US racial tensions.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Would this have seen the light of day if it wasn't for recent events? How many more cases like this are out there?

Black man’s death in police custody in Washington ruled homicide, mayor calls for justice
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/black-mans-death-in-police-custody-in-washington-ruled-homicide-mayor-calls-for-justice/ar-BB156ap8

Three months after the death of a Black man in police custody — in an incident similar to the death of George Floyd — the mayor of Tacoma, Wash., is calling for the officers involved to be fired and prosecuted "to the full extent of the law."

Mayor Victoria Woodards' impassioned late-night press conference Thursday night came shortly after video emerged appearing to show Manuel Ellis being restrained on the ground by police on March 3.

On Tuesday, the Pierce County Medical Examiner's Office released its autopsy report for Ellis, which determined he died of respiratory arrest from hypoxia due to physical restraint. It also ruled the 33-year-old's death as a homicide

 

[MilEME09]

www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-case-for-invading-america/amp/

I have posted this before but once again it is relevant. The article argues the US is decending into a failed state. One that is nuclear armed, rife with civil unrest and human rights abuse and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

[stellarpanther]

Not sure if people watched the video of a 75 year old man get pushed to the ground causing him to hit his head.  Despite bleeding from the head they looked at him and kept on going.  The police tried to lie and say he tripped until video showed up.  57 mbr's of the ERT in Buffalo have resigned from the team after the 2 officers were suspended.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Would this have seen the light of day if it wasn't for recent events? How many more cases like this are out there?

Black man’s death in police custody in Washington ruled homicide, mayor calls for justice
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/black-mans-death-in-police-custody-in-washington-ruled-homicide-mayor-calls-for-justice/ar-BB156ap8

People can only speculate one way or the other.

But regardless of the reasons why, many instances are coming to light and they need to.

Several law enforcement officers of varying ranks, and politicians at all levels are speaking out where once they would’ve remained silent for fear of (any manner of) repercussions. If people can blame Trump for all the protests and general unrest occurring in the US right now, I suppose they can also blame him for the forward/positive motion of various social movements, bringing instances of police misconduct and other injustices to the forefront, as well as drawing even more attention to what needs to change within the healthcare system, where several services are failing Americans, etc. ‘Perhaps being overly optimistic at this point, but maybe substantial changes will actually take place in one area or another.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"The system".  "White privilege".

These are just names for a general idea, that for lack of a better term but needing a non-specific one I will call "circle of privilege".  A CoP is the collection of dominant local customs and institutions, accessible to whomever is admitted.  Historically, admission has mostly depended on resources.  Historically, ethnic culture has often been the chief criterion used to divide in-group from out-groups (racism).

In Saudi Arabia, the CoP is Saudi Arabians, some of whom treat their foreign workers poorly.  In China, it is ethnic Chinese, some of whom treat non-Chinese poorly.  In Canada and the US and most of Europe, it is mostly ethnically white people, but it has not always been that way.  A couple of hundred years ago, an Irishman in indentured service to a wealthy Englishman in the colonies would not have thought himself "white privileged", irrespective of the fact that his status might have been better than that of "negro" or "red Indian".  Go back a few more hundred years and the CoP was king and nobles, or maybe king and nobles plus additional gentry.  An early exception to narrow scoping: Roman citizenship.

I mention those examples to make the points that privilege is not simply "white" - it's an artifact of humanity, not white people - and that its extent can improve.

Increasing prosperity (access to resources) may be the best explanation for how the CoP widens; merely rethinking principles of liberty and governance has almost never been enough.  Buy-in is required: you have to want to join; you can't force people to be in your CoP if they want to form their own.  There can't be positive resistance to admitting others.  (Saudi Arabia is very wealthy, and must have to work at excluding some people.)

The package of institutions and customs that gets tagged as "white privilege" is essentially what we have here.  It is, ideologically and now almost entirely as a matter of law, accessible to all.  I think it's the best one yet (my "western civilization", "classical liberalism" chauvinism).  There are resources in plenty, but maybe not enough in some specific locations (eg. urban cores).  And plenty of non-whites are part of it.  When minorities who are part of the CoP are called out by those who seem to think they have some claim to demand tribal loyalty, it illustrates that our CoP is obviously not "white".

Our "system" is pretty well advanced and doesn't need revolutionary change.  Most of the heavy lifting has been done to tear down the artificial contradictions (3/5ths rule, non-universal suffrage, discrimination based on superficial characteristics) that were laid over our basic principles and ideals of liberty and justice and governance.

I suppose most problems now stem not from systemic flaws, but from flawed people who are self-appointed gatekeepers or hoarders.

If a mayor and council have a back-scratching arrangement with their police leadership which allows undesirable conduct to flourish (the politicians protect the corrupt police, the police don't go after the corrupt politicians), it's not the system that's at fault.  The system already provides for a way to replace them.  If the system is at fault, then everyone should have the same systemic problems.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>The article argues the US is decending into a failed state.

You are kidding, I trust?  China treats its entire Uighur population poorly and no-one seriously suggests it is a "failed state".  France has riots and no-one seriously suggests it is a "failed state".  Etc.

 

[MilEME09]

>The article argues the US is decending into a failed state.

You are kidding, I trust?  China treats its entire Uighur population poorly and no-one seriously suggests it is a "failed state".  France has riots and no-one seriously suggests it is a "failed state".  Etc.

I am mostly kidding, however the racial divide in the US seems to be getting worse, not better. Military leaders are coming out against Trump deploying federal troops domestically. Over all the situation is chaos with no end in sight. Is the US actually a failed state? I don't believe so at all I was posted it to generate discussion.

 

[Good2Golf]

Not sure if people watched the video of a 75 year old man get pushed to the ground causing him to hit his head.  Despite bleeding from the head they looked at him and kept on going.  The police tried to lie and say he tripped until video showed up.  57 mbr's of the ERT in Buffalo have resigned from the team after the 2 officers were suspended.

Look at the end of the video...the only ones to help were two Guardsmen, who as soon as they came up to him, knelt down and started to triage him.

 

[MilEME09]

Look at the end of the video...the only ones to help were two Guardsmen, who as soon as they came up to him, knelt down and started to triage him.

Part of my narrow view of agreeing with deploying federal troops is the assumed higher level of discipline, use of force, and escalation of force training. Military forces continue to show a higher level of professionalism then what I am seeing from some police forces.