A Deeply Fractured US

[brihard]

These cases US jury finds Oath Keepers leader guilty of seditious conspiracy

Aljazeera did a good graphic, I am most concerned about those 50 cases.

View attachment 78877

If this can topple your government , you have other problems
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Yeah, that photo is Jacob Chancey. He pled guilty to obstructing an official proceeding, which he most certainly did.

What’s your issue with judges/juries convicting organized groups of seditious conspiracy on the strength of the evidence? The prosecutions were compelling and, in nearly every case, succesful. Those weren’t yahoos running around with face paint on, they were much more deliberate and organized.

As I tend to do, in the case of the Oath Keepers seditious conspiracy prosecutions, I encourage you and anyone else taking issue with it to at least start by reading the indictment. It’s not short, but it’s not complex either, and I think it’s a pretty necessary start point for being able to claim to have an informed opinion on this.

 

[GR66]

If this can topple your government , you have other problems
View attachment 78878

How true. Can't imagine how a couple of people dressed up in Native American clothing could be any sort of threat to a government...

 

[brihard]

So, timely and relevant to the discussion at hand, the state of Michigan has just charged 16 Republican electors with felony forgery, conspiracy, and election law violations for, basically, actually trying to steal the election.


EDIT TO ADD: here’s the criminal complaint. https://www.michigan.gov/ag/-/media...1777755&hash=DAC4826FBD6FE538FF5AB7F64491A97B

This is basically a product of America’s weird-to-me electoral college system. These 16 individuals, in a nutshell, are accused of fraudulently claiming themselves to have been chosen by voters as the state’s electors to cast votes in the electoral college. If proven as alleged it was a literal attempt to steal electoral college votes in favour of Trump. Biden carried the state by about 155,000 votes.

https://www.michigan.gov/ag/news/press-releases/2023/07/18/michigan-attorney-general-dana-nessel-charges-16-false-electors

 

[WLSC]

Yeah, that photo is Jacob Chancey. He pled guilty to obstructing an official proceeding, which he most certainly did.

What’s your issue with judges/juries convicting organized groups of seditious conspiracy on the strength of the evidence? The prosecutions were compelling and, in nearly every case, succesful. Those weren’t yahoos running around with face paint on, they were much more deliberate and organized.

As I tend to do, in the case of the Oath Keepers seditious conspiracy prosecutions, I encourage you and anyone else taking issue with it to at least start by reading the indictment. It’s not short, but it’s not complex either, and I think it’s a pretty necessary start point for being able to claim to have an informed opinion on this.

I commend your patience and your devotion to sticking to the idea somewhat bizarre that facts do actually matters by always asking to read official documents

 

[brihard]

I commend your patience and your devotion to sticking to the idea somewhat bizarre that facts do actually matters by always asking to read official documents

Thank you. Apparently Trump got a target letter indicating imminent federal indictment for Jan 6th; there are reports that offences include witness tampering and obstructing an official proceeding. I’m not gonna get too excited about that though. There will likely be an actual indictment within a week, and I don’t think that will be his biggest legal jeopardy. Georgia is on indictment watch too. State prosecutions should concern him because subsequent presidents cannot pardon them.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Michigan isn’t done yet and if charges are laid against one or more members of Trump’s inner circle who coordinated the false elector fraud.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yeah, that photo is Jacob Chancey. He pled guilty to obstructing an official proceeding, which he most certainly did.

What’s your issue with judges/juries convicting organized groups of seditious conspiracy on the strength of the evidence? The prosecutions were compelling and, in nearly every case, succesful. Those weren’t yahoos running around with face paint on, they were much more deliberate and organized.

As I tend to do, in the case of the Oath Keepers seditious conspiracy prosecutions, I encourage you and anyone else taking issue with it to at least start by reading the indictment. It’s not short, but it’s not complex either, and I think it’s a pretty necessary start point for being able to claim to have an informed opinion on this.

Thanks for that, but just reinforces my belief that sedition charges were not warranted. These guys had delusion of grandeur and no real plan. The fact they can perform a stack is not that uncommon. Watch rioters around the globe and you see better organization. By all means hit them up with assault, trespass and vandalism. But these charges are meant to be a message to people the Dems do not like. Hence my belief in the political factor.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Thanks for that, but just reinforces my belief that sedition charges were not warranted. These guys had delusion of grandeur and no real plan. The fact they can perform a stack is not that uncommon. Watch rioters around the globe and you see better organization. By all means hit them up with assault, trespass and vandalism. But these charges are meant to be a message to people the Dems do not like. Hence my belief in the political factor.

I

 

[brihard]

Thanks for that, but just reinforces my belief that sedition charges were not warranted. These guys had delusion of grandeur and no real plan. The fact they can perform a stack is not that uncommon. Watch rioters around the globe and you see better organization. By all means hit them up with assault, trespass and vandalism. But these charges are meant to be a message to people the Dems do not like. Hence my belief in the political factor.

Ok, but did you read the indictment?

 

[lenaitch]

Did you forget to sternly say “ENHANCE!” to the computer screen three or four times? It usually works for me.

I often get a kick out of tv shows where they instantly hack into every traffic, convenience store and even in-car camera. and come up with crystal clear images.

The work "hack" and admissible court evidence are generally in conflict but, then again, you never see these guys labouring over voluminous prosecution briefs.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Thank you. Apparently Trump got a target letter indicating imminent federal indictment for Jan 6th; there are reports that offences include witness tampering and obstructing an official proceeding. I’m not gonna get too excited about that though. There will likely be an actual indictment within a week, and I don’t think that will be his biggest legal jeopardy. Georgia is on indictment watch too. State prosecutions should concern him because subsequent presidents cannot pardon them.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Michigan isn’t done yet and if charges are laid against one or more members of Trump’s inner circle who coordinated the false elector fraud.

But governors can pardon for state offences. It's been twenty years since Georgia has had a Democratic governor, though the current Republican Governor of Georgia is not a favourite of Mr. Trump.

 

[brihard]

But governors can pardon for state offences. It's been twenty years since Georgia has had a Democratic governor, though the current Republican Governor of Georgia is not a favourite of Mr. Trump.

That’s not actually necessarily the case. As with many things, it varies by state. In Georgia the governor cannot. In Michigan the governor can.

 

[Blackadder1916]

That’s not actually necessarily the case. As with many things, it varies by state. In Georgia the governor cannot. In Michigan the governor can.

I stand corrected.

 

[KevinB]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1681494055480438785

 

[brihard]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1681494055480438785

If accurate, that suggests they’ve narrowed their investigation down to just a few charges that they’re very confident they can prosecute and prove, rather than throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks. I’m not at all surprised by that, but it’s still good to see.

I’m actually more interested to see who else is and isn’t getting indicted, such as Giuliani or Eastman. That could be indicative of who DOJ successfully flipped to save their skin.

 

[KevinB]

If accurate, that suggests they’ve narrowed their investigation down to just a few charges that they’re very confident they can prosecute and prove, rather than throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks. I’m not at all surprised by that, but it’s still good to see.

I’m actually more interested to see who else is and isn’t getting indicted, such as Giuliani or Eastman. That could be indicative of who DOJ successfully flipped to save their skin.

Giuliani has released that he didn’t receive a target notice.
Suspicion is that he has flipped and provided evidence.

 

[Kirkhill]

With trepidation...

My problem is with the thinking that November 4th is the decisive date and that the elections are called by TV stations. The rules of the game state explicitly that challenges are permissible right up until Jan 6th when the refs blow time and make the final call.

 

[brihard]

Giuliani has released that he didn’t receive a target notice.
Suspicion is that he has flipped and provided evidence.

I’ve seen that too but it’s all supposition at this point. Could just be not yet. From what I’ve read the Grand Jury has continued working and potentially seeing witnesses right up to quite recently.

Meanwhile, the judge in the classified documents case is working to set a trial date that allows sufficient time for the pre-trial matters dealing with protecting classified info. Reportedly she was asking the state prosecutor in New York if he’s willing to entertain moving the March 2024 hush money trial. Trump’s criminal trials are already starting to crash into each other. This will only get worse with a federal indictment out of Washington and if he’s indicted later this summer in Georgia.

With trepidation...

My problem is with the thinking that November 4th is the decisive date and that the elections are called by TV stations. The rules of the game state explicitly that challenges are permissible right up until Jan 6th when the refs blow time and make the final call.

Challenges are fine. There were dozens and dozens of legal challenges of the last election and they all failed miserably. Nobody’s in shit for those. Criminal investigations and prosecutors are swirling around measures taken that weren’t legal, like the fraudulent electors scheme, or efforts to pressure state officials to ‘find’ more votes. There was never an open season with a running clock for permissible fraud.

 

[QV]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1681982007197282304

Hmmm

 

[Navy_Pete]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1681982007197282304

Hmmm

So are you saying an ad is the same as storming Congress, with nooses, restraining devices and weapons?

Even for 'whataboutism' this is a dumb take. One is protected free speech with people voicing their opinion, the other is things like assault, trespassing and sedition which got people killed. No one is getting convicted for just saying things; they are going to jail for doing things (and threatening people while doing said things).

 

[Weinie]

So are you saying an ad is the same as storming Congress, with nooses, restraining devices and weapons?

Even for 'whataboutism' this is a dumb take. One is protected free speech with people voicing their opinion, the other is things like assault, trespassing and sedition which got people killed. No one is getting convicted for just saying things; they are going to jail for doing things (and threatening people while doing said things).

Meh. Liberals take action through legal and bureaucratic means, while conservatives take action through physical means. The ends, in both cases, are seldom justified, except for the radicals in both camps, who claim victory. A pox on politics, which currently exacerbates divisions.