All Things Vegetarian/Vegan (merged)

[aesop081]

When you get sick from eating animal-foods there are no flashing lights that say: "SEE I TOLD YOU SO!!"

So it can be a little difficult for most people to see any relationship
between health problems and the eating of animal-foods.

Most people today who get cancer, stroke, heart disease, high blood presure, or any of the other
realted problems have no idea that it has anything to do with their diet and think that their
problems are just a part of life that must be endured and that they are just unlucky.

I've seen research that shows that a great very many of todays health problems can
be avoided by simply eating a proper diet.

Let me tell you a little about my family;

One of my uncles on my fathers side has Alzheimers, my aunt on the other side recently had a stroke and
almost died (she is permanently disabled as a result of the stroke now).

My mother got breast cancer. Then she had a minor heart attack, but she appears to be ok now, and the
cancer is gone as well.

Three close family friends have died from cancer, one from heart attack.
One is in the hospital dying from cancer right now.

I'm really glad your family all have perfect health.

Not everybody is so lucky.

You are still going at it hey ?  Guess us club-carrying meat eaters sre just too dumb to listen to you  :

 

[dutchie]

I heard recently on the radio that there is a new fad diet out there that I think a lot of you might find interesting. It involves eating meat that is strictly wild or game. No farm beef, chicken, pork, or lamb. Lots of cariboo, bear, musk ox (very tasty), moose, deer, pheasant, etc along with wild versions of common meat (beef, lamb, etc). The theory being that wild meat does not have all of the added hormones, anti-biotics, etc that farmed meat does. As well, wild animals are thought to be fitter and healthier than farmed ones, making the meat healthier. IIRC, organic veggies and dairy products go along with this diet as well. As someone who has had wild musk ox & cariboo (is there any other kind?), this would appeal to me if it weren't for the cost. Musk ox might be the tastiest, most tender and flavourful meat I have ever had.

Thoughts?

 

[neuromancer]

I guess Futuretroopers post was just one of those rhetorical posts where we are
all supposed to meditate upon the wisdom of growing up on a dairy farm, I'll have
to try to keep my eyes open for those rhetorical posts from now on.

Sorry, but I mistakenly thought the post warrented a response.

 

[KevinB]

Two friends of mine have been eating organic meats for a while (ones family has been doing for longer than the 20 years I've known him)

This week I've been back to Ottawa I've eaten "uncontaminated" meats all week (mooching) with the exception of some smoked salmon down town...  - Probably psychosomatic but I feel more energetic and healthier (plus those buggers got me running, bikign and swimming ALOT)

 

[Manimal]

the cleaner the food the better. i think we can all agree that hormones and antibiotics put in to animals are not good for us to eat.
and you can see many thousands of people that have eaten meat 12 times a day for 159 years and have never been sick in there lives. i know i have. and i know a hard full of veggie heads that are always sick, and unhealthy, over weight etc.

but talking to meat eaters or veggie heads is a losing battle, keep your ideals, and work towards improving your health and well being, but talking about those health factors is a losing battle. if you love meat, you'll never understand, if you don't, you'll never understand others. but there is never a common ground until meat eats try the diet..... which many of them won't. it's their choice, and as a vegetarian, i respect that. if they want advice on how to do it, or foods they can/should eat, then i'm hear for them.

but you'll doing it for health? great, don't add stress to your battle,  don't fight with them club carring meat eaters (LOL that's funny aesop) they might just club you!

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

    I LOVE vegetarians.  They are the only people I let in front of me in the buffet line, tend to have meals that look like a cross between modern art and my mutual fund pie chart.  Incidently, three of the last five people I had to send off in an ambulance were all vegetarians who were suffering from cardiac or pulmonary consequences to low blood iron, running from anemia on up.  Its a great lifestyle as long as you as your body never needs to turn over blood in a hurry ;D

 

[Manimal]

 

[Strike]

The following article just shows the stupidity of SOME vegetarians.  Read the highlighted portion.  I don't know how many people I've met that say they don't eat meat because it's cruel to kill animals and then I look down and see a leather belt and shoes.  Nice.

PUBLICATION:  The Kingston Whig-Standard
DATE:  2005.08.02
EDITION:  Final
SECTION:  Forum
PAGE:  5
COLUMN:  In Other Words
BYLINE:  Christine Overall
SOURCE:  Special to The Kingston Whig-Standard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe it's time for a 'Meat Eaters Anonymous'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lately I've been wondering if eating meat is an addiction.

It certainly seemed that way to me.

I gave up meat five years ago. This was after a whole decade during which I sincerely believed I wasn't morally justified in eating meat.

With so many other foods available to me, I couldn't justify eating the bodies of mammals - especially given the deplorable conditions under which most of them live until they're slaughtered.

The spirit was willing but the flesh was weak. It took me years to reach a point where I could make my actions consistent with my beliefs.

Since I became a vegetarian in April 2000, I've eaten meat only twice. The first was at Christmas, eight months later. I ate some turkey as a way of joining in the annual festive Christmas dinner, and also to test my supposed need for meat.

I found I could have been just as celebratory by eating the vegetables. The Christmas spirit doesn't depend on consuming a dead bird.

The other time was by mistake, when I ate an hors d'oeuvre whose contents I failed to correctly identify.

Some vegetarians feel like vomiting if they accidentally eat meat. That didn't happen to me. But I did feel a rush of repulsion. For lack of a napkin in which to spit the thing out, I swallowed it hastily.

I realized my dependence on meat had come to an end.

I still eat fish occasionally. Not out of any sense of entitlement, but because the nutrients fish contain are so valuable. You might say I'm a hypocrite.

I may some day decide to give up fish. But in the meantime I believe it's a victory, if only a small one, that I've permanently kicked the meat habit. Small steps can produce big changes.

And my experiences have made me wonder whether meat-eating is something like an addiction.

According to the Minnesota Institute of Psychiatry, addiction is a process in which a behaviour, which both produces pleasure and provides escape from internal discomfort, is "employed in a pattern characterized by (1) recurrent failure to control the behavior (powerlessness) and (2) continuation of the behaviour despite significant negative consequences (unmanageability)."

Meat-eating comes close to meeting that definition. Those who consume meat certainly get pleasure from it. And eating meat, like other types of eating, can provide an escape.

More important, many people seem unable to stop eating meat. I know it took me many years.

And yes, meat eating has significant negative consequences.

It increases cholesterol, thereby adding to the likelihood that the meat consumer will develop cardiovascular disease. High meat consumption is also linked with osteoporosis and with some forms of cancer.

If you eat meat, you risk exposing yourself to food poisoning via bacteria like salmonella and campylobacter. You also ingest all the hormones and antibiotics pumped into the animals you're eating. And, of course, there are new fears that meat-eaters could develop bovine spongiform encephalitis (mad cow disease) or possibly the avian flu spread by chickens and ducks.

In terms of wider consequences, meat "factories" also contribute to the pollution of our water and air. They multiply the consumption of fossil fuels, and they introduce hormones and antibiotics into the water.

Given all these drawbacks, it's surprising that governments aren't sensible enough to control our meat consumption, the way they do with alcohol and tobacco. They could, for example, impose stringent limitations on the quantity of meat produced, or they could tax meat consumption. They could even put warning labels on roasts and porkchops.

Despite government inactivity, individuals should be making the prudent decision to eliminate or cut back their meat consumption.

The number of vegetarians in the west is growing. Some surveys indicate that between one and 4.5 per cent of North Americans say they never eat meat. But even with the most optimistic estimate, that means that over 95 per cent still eat meat.

If they eat it only once a month, or even once a week, then they're reducing the risks to themselves and diminishing, at least slightly, the costs to our environment.

But my guess is there are still lots of folks out there under the illusion that meat is an essential part of the diet, and that it should be consumed at at least two meals a day. I continue to be surprised how often people ask me, "But what do you do if you don't eat meat? How do you get any protein?"

They fail to realize all the other protein sources there are. These include dairy products like eggs, yogurt, cheese and milk. They also include beans, nuts and seeds. And, though it may not be widely known, many other foods contain protein, such as potatoes, whole wheat bread, rice, broccoli, spinach, almonds, peas, peanut butter, tofu, soy milk, lentils and kale.

Pleasure, escape, significant negative consequences, failure to control the behaviour. Sounds to me like meat-eating qualifies as an addiction.

Maybe we need an organization called "Meat Addicts Anonymous."

- Christine Overall is a feminist and a professor of philosophy at Queen's University.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Rant on

Typically, when you can't mount a logical argument to something, the next step is to vilify it. Now we're to classed as addicts? This is where the prohibitionist started with alcohol, and the anti tobacco lobby started. They'll push their small minded movement till the government again listens to a vocal minority, and the meat eaters will find themselves hiding behind dumpsters eating black market meat, bought with ill gotten gains for $100.00 an ounce. :

As with guns, tobacco, alcohol, gas burning engines and recycling, your entitled to your opinion. However, while they all remain legal, quit trying to shove your shyte down my throat. MYOFB and leave me alone. I promise I'll do the same for you. My choices are mine, not yours.

Rant off

 

[Britney Spears]

Just so we're clear on the terminology here, from Wikipedia.

    * Vegetarians who avoid consuming all animal products (including eggs, milk, cheese, and honey) are commonly called vegans, though some reserve this term for those who additionally avoid usage of all kinds of animal products (such as leather and some cosmetics), rather than just food.

    * Ovo-lacto vegetarians do not eat meat, but may consume animal products such as eggs and milk. They do not, however, eat cheese made with animal rennet, and for ethical reasons often do not eat eggs produced by factory farms. The term "vegetarian" is most commonly intended to mean "ovo-lacto-vegetarian", particularly as "vegan" has gained acceptance as the term for stricter practice.

    * Lacto vegetarians do not eat meat, but may consume milk and its derivatives, like cheese, butter, or yogurt.

    * Similarly, ovo vegetarians do not eat meat but may eat eggs. This, and lacto vegetarianism, can also be known as semi-veganism.

    * Macrobiotics involves a diet consisting mostly of whole grains and beans, and is usually spiritually based like Fructarianism (see below).

    * Raw Foodism involves food, usually vegan, which is not heated above 116 °F (46.7 °C); it may be warmed slightly or raw, but never cooked. Raw Foodists argue that cooking destroys enzymes, and/or portions of each nutrient; this is true, but most raw foodists also acknowledge that for some foods, as cooking softens them, their nutrients become more bio-available, which more than negates the destruction of some nutrients and enzymes. Some raw-foodists, called living-foodists, also "activate" the enzymes (such as by soaking the food in water) a while before they plan to eat the food. Some spiritual raw-foodists are also Fructarians and some eat only organic foods (see below).

    * Fructarians, more commonly called "fruitarians", eat only fruit, nuts, seeds, and other plant matter that can be gathered without harming the plant (some fructarians eat only plant matter that has already fallen off the plant). This typically arises out of a holistic philosophy. Thus, a fructarian will eat beans, tomatoes, cucumbers, pumpkins, and the like, but will refuse to eat potatoes or spinach. It is disputed whether it is possible to avoid malnutrition with a fructarian diet, which is rarer than other types of vegetarian or vegan diet.

Religious dietary restrictions come in many forms and are sometimes compatible with the secular terminology; see below.

The following are not generally considered vegetarianism:

    * Some people choose to avoid certain types of meat for many of the same reasons that others choose vegetarianism: health, ethical beliefs, etc. For example, some people will not eat "red meat" (mammal meat â “ beef, lamb, pork, etc.) while still consuming poultry and seafood. This is not traditional vegetarianism, but has recently been referred to in the media as semi-vegetarianism (see pesco/pollo vegetarianism for other terms). Some non-vegetarians thus assume vegetarianism to be pesco/pollo vegetarianism.

    * Others might regard the suffering of animals in factory farm conditions as their sole reason for avoiding meat or meat based foods. These people will eat meat or meat products from animals raised under more humane conditions or hunted in the wild. Some of these people incorrectly refer to themselves as vegetarians.

    * Freegans subscribe to a purely environmental mentality: although meat is generally avoided, eating meat that has been discarded by others is acceptable. The environmental impact of this practice is seen as null or perhaps even beneficial (although discarded meat can be safely composted in some facilities). Freegans often prefer discarded food in any case, even if it is not meat. But producing meat is believed to have more environmental impact than other foods, so this is often the focus of freeganism.

    * Flexitarians adhere to a diet that is mostly vegetarian. However, they occasionally consume meat.

Right now, my diet is essentially "Flexitarian".

 

[Britney Spears]

Typically, when you can't mount a logical argument to something, the next step is to vilify it.

What about vegan/vegetarianism do you find illogical? If you've got a bullet proof debunking then let's hear it.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I not saying there isn't logical arguements on both sides. I'm saying that there are small minded people out there that if they can't convince you or are to anal to leave people be, they'll degenerate to things like that dingbat was saying.

 

[aesop081]

As with guns, tobacco, alcohol, gas burning engines and recycling, your entitled to your opinion. However, while they all remain legal, quit trying to shove your shyte down my throat. MYOFB and leave me alone. I promise I'll do the same for you. My choices are mine, not yours.

Rant off

Freakin' brilliant !  The shyte that has been dished out from the "anti-meat" types  is like the crap i put up with from the mormons downstairs or the jehova's that insit or knocking on my door sunday morning at 8.  Its like their mission in life is to free me from my sins. Get over yourself and frekin leave the rest of us alone.

 

[Britney Spears]

Heh, I agree on the dingbat part. People like Christine Overall make me question my faith in my fellow liberals.

I don't agree that *pure* veganism or the complete elimination of meat from one's diet is a good thing. I do believe that we in the Developed World as a whole will GREATLY benefit from a drastic reduction in the amount of meat and animal products comsumed(better health for the vast majority of people), the elimination of enviromentally unsustainable factory farms, big agro-business, and more goverment promotion of "green" agriculture. If that can be achieved by promoting at least a predominantely vegetarian diet, I'm all for it.

Mind my own business? The production of alchohol, tobbacco, and firearms do not pose a significant threat to the enviroment. If any of you have been downwind to a slaughterhouse or seen a factory farm you'll know why it is everyone's business.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If any of you have been downwind to a slaughterhouse or seen a factory farm you'll know why it is everyone's business.

I inspect them as part of my job. Did one today as a matter of fact, doesn't bother me in the least. If it went into production AFTER the houses were there, the populace has a reason to bitch. However, if the NIMBY's built their half million dollar dream home next to it, they got no call to bitch. It was their choice.

 

[Britney Spears]

inspect them as part of my job. Did one today as a matter of fact, doesn't bother me in the least. If it went into production AFTER the houses were there, the populace has a reason to *****. However, if the NIMBY's built their half million dollar dream home next to it, they got no call to *****. It was their choice.

Well, seeing as how I think the entire modern meat industry is an enviromental unsustainable and an abomination on nature, I'm not too worried about their location, although if I lived near one, you can be sure I'd be up in arms.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Like I said, if your were there first. If not, no one made you move there. It's like moving in next store to someone established and saying "Hey, I don't like the colour of your house! Get it painted or get the hell out."

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

Reading through the 10 pages of this thread so far and trying to take a neutral stance on the topic, its very clear that the "vegan" concept is being forced down the throat of all as the end all be all solution to longevity. Since this site is based on facts and opininons for topics, nowhere else have I seen posts that so blatently force ones opinion on others.

Yes the concept that a no meat diet will extend your life is an opinion. Fine, great but keep it at that and use the letters IMHO next time. No one has yet to prove that a baby raised to a natural death age on vegetables has lived a better or healthier life than a baby raised on meat.

IMHO the general attitude in the CF is eat how you want, nobody will be coming up to you saying hey, I eat meat.....did you hear me? I eat meat......

But as for spending more defence dollars (which are quickly running out as it is) on vegan nutritionists and developing no meat rations that can sustain you to complete all that is asked of a soldier, is sadly not an option for the small percentage of the CF that actually want it.

I would like to see ice cream incorporated into rations but I wont hold my breath.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I had some fruit flavoured skittles.  Does that count towards my daily intake?  lol

 

[Hunter911]

Reading through the 10 pages of this thread so far and trying to take a neutral stance on the topic, its very clear that the "vegan" concept is being forced down the throat of all as the end all be all solution to longevity. Since this site is based on facts and opininons for topics, nowhere else have I seen posts that so blatently force ones opinion on others.

Yes the concept that a no meat diet will extend your life is an opinion. Fine, great but keep it at that and use the letters IMHO next time. No one has yet to prove that a baby raised to a natural death age on vegetables has lived a better or healthier life than a baby raised on meat.

IMHO the general attitude in the CF is eat how you want, nobody will be coming up to you saying hey, I eat meat.....did you hear me? I eat meat......

But as for spending more defence dollars (which are quickly running out as it is) on vegan nutritionists and developing no meat rations that can sustain you to complete all that is asked of a soldier, is sadly not an option for the small percentage of the CF that actually want it.

I would like to see ice cream incorporated into rations but I wont hold my breath.

Very good points... There is no need to spend money on developing a no meat food supplement when there are so many other things that that money could be put towards... A personal estimation would be that there would be no more than 5% of people in the forces who were vegan TOPS...

In my opinion, you should eat what they give you to eat (simply because you dont have many other options if you want to eat)... Im not really with the whole vegan thing... im not saying its wrong... but im not really with it...I see no reason not to eat meat, and sometimes you cant afford to be picky