All Things Vegetarian/Vegan (merged)

[larry Strong]

It's the generally accepted Theory

I would be interested in carrying this onward, but as it is not germaine to the original subject we will let it drop here

 

[neuromancer]

Holy cow(no pun intended), I had no idea this would degenerate into such a total shite storm.

Im really hesitant to weight in on this subject any more because its clear
there are a lot of people who will just call me names and shoot down anything
I have to say while at the same time offering ZERO countering evidence besides
their examples of their grandmothers or grandfathers which are NOT scientific studies.

As far as those veggies who suffer from anemia or broken hips or whatever, well, I feel
sorry that they obviously dont have the proper information to form a sustaining diet.
At the very least they should be lumped in with people under other improper diet
formulas who die of stroke/cardiac arrest/cancer from their bad diets.

If a vegan gets anemia it means their diet formula is unbalanced, but it does not mean that vegetables are bad for you!

However, if my choice was anemia or cancer, I'll take anemia, at least anemia can be cured by increasing iron
intake, there are many vegetables that have high-iron content.

The China-Project study (go google it) shows that health benefits increase and health problems
decrease as the percentage of calories from plant-foods increase up to 90% of calories coming
from plant-foods.

I thought it went all the way up to 100% but apparently the benefits past 90% are very negligible.

So, in conclusion, if you eat 10% of your total caloric intake from animal-foods and 90% of your caloric
intake from plant-foods, you will be putting yourself into the healthiest percentile of people on earth.

That can be taken as a fact according to the Cornell-Oxford study known as the China-Project which is the largest
human study on health and diet which has ever been done. ...LARGEST SCIENTIFIC STUDY ON DIET EVER DONE...

If you disagre with the results of the study then you are welcome to do a study of your own to prove
the scientists from Cornell and Oxford wrong. Good luck.

Im really upset that several people here are trying to take the stance that the health
benefits of eating vegetables are a matter of opinion and then lumping it
in with pushy religeos people. I strongly suggest you not say that too my face
should we happen to meet. That kind of ignorant talk really pushes my buttons, hard.

If you really feel you must keep eating meat or you will waste away or not have
enough energy to work and play..NO PROBLEM!

Nobody is trying to force you to change your overall lifestyle. I'm just giving information
that shows a certain trend, what you do with the info is entirely up to you.

However, if you can, if at all possible, then please just try to eat a few more vegetables
every day. Its not a matter of faith, your health will improve because there is strongly
supported nutritional science behind this.

The Canadian health guide says 5-10 servings of fruit and vegetables a day.
When was the last time you ate 5 - 10 pieces of fruit in a day?

1 orange = 1 serving

LISTEN TO YOUR MOTHER, EAT YOUR VEGGIES!

Thats all Im trying to say.

 

[beach_bum]

I don't think anyone was trying to say that eating fruit and veggies were bad for you.  I know I certainly wasn't.  I very much enjoy eating both fruit and vegetables, and yes I do eat at least five servings per day.  I also very much enjoy eating meat.  I don't eat meat with every meal, and on the occasional day, I won't have any meat at all.  I eat a lot of fish and chicken, but I also happen to love a nice steak done on the BBQ (have one marinating right now for dinner in fact) as well. 

I know quite a few vegetarians who are very healthy as well.  I'm not saying you are wrong to not eat meat.  That is your preference.  My point is that people who eat a balanced diet including meat can be just as healthy.  That's it.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Well folks I like to eat meat..if people don't like my food choices   well tough! I also like my Coke and jolt cola. I like coffee! I like Mars Bars. I like corn on the cob. I like basmati rice...get the picture?

Neuromancer while I know you tried to present a good reason for people to become vegans, its not going to happen. You have gotten a backlash, so the suggestion to you would be to accept not everyone agrees with your views and move on. BTW its not nice to threaten to do physical harm to people because they disagree and find your lifestyle choices to be odd.

 

[Strike]

Britney,

I hate to say it, but your thinking is flawed.  I'm sure that the larger livestock farms to cause pollution in varrying forms, but veggie and grain farms are no better.  All we have to do is look in the news about genetically altered plants.  Also, you may find (if you do a little research in environmental sciences -- I'm a Chem Eng by schooling and study this subject on the side) that these farms are actually worse.  Think of the chemicals sprayed on plants to fertilize and keep the bugs away.

Of course, the major problem, especially in North America, is the waste of water.  The general method used to irigate these farms is by spraying the fields either with a large sprinkler or by running a long pipe on rollers over the field while also spraying.  The problem with this method is that the water must pass through the air causing up to 50% to evaporate, depending on the amount of humidity already present in the air.  When the wtare reaches the ground it does not automatically seep into the ground and another 25% of the total water can be lost through the same method.  This means only 25% of the water used for irigation actually makes it to the plants.  Of course, this problem could be alleviated by installing a drip hose system either on or under the ground.  It is much more expensive to install but only 15% of the water is lost.

The reason this is such a huge problem in North America is because many farmers are subsidized on their water use.  They pay a base price, no matter how much of it they actually use.  With most of the big farms being in the midwestern States and the prairies and the fact that this is an area with a water deficit, it seems the governments need to step up and stop this practice.

So, before you go saying that all livestock farms are big polluter of the air and water table and waste water, I suggest you research the effect that the other farms have to the environment as well.  You may find they can be just as bad in some respects and sometimes even worse in others.

- rant off -

 

[Britney Spears]

You missed my point entirely. I never claimed that that other forms of agriculture are completely without enviromental impact, I'm saying that it takes a LOT more in terms of energy and water resources to raise the equivilant amount of food in the form of livestock. What do you think cows and pigs eat? apart from other cows and pigs? Most livestock is fed with grain, which must be grown in the manner of which you speak(In fact, I believe most of the grain grown in N America is used for animal feed, I can google for a cite if you want), and it's an overall inefficient use of resources. You know, "second law of thermodynamics" and all that Chem Eng jazz. That's why in the past, and for poor countries in the present, meat is/was a luxury item that the common man saw very little of, with the exception of nomadic peoples like the Mongols or the Masai, who required vast tracts of land to support a relatively small population.

Back to my original point, The nature of these CAFOs is the same as that of large cities, when enourmous amounts of waste is concentrated in such a small area, it is impossible for the ecosystem to absorb. I highly doubt that most of these CAFOs can produce meat more economically than small farms if they were forced to cover the enviromental costs as well.

"Imagine a city as big as New York suddenly grafted onto North Carolina's Coastal Plain. Double it. Now imagine that this city has no sewage treatment plants. All the wastes from 15 million people are simply flushed into open pits and sprayed onto fields. Turn those humans into hogs, and you don't have to imagine at all. It's already here."

<a href=http://www.earthsave.org/lifestyle/factfarm.htm>Source</a>

 

[Hatless Dancer]

Wow, does todays army really go to such lengths to accomodate vegetarians? Remind the CQ three days in advance to set aside one haybox with wheat grass and tofu? Thats just wrong. On so many levels.

 

[SeanPaul_031]

Wow, does todays army really go to such lengths to accomodate vegetarians? Remind the CQ three days in advance to set aside one haybox with wheat grass and tofu? Thats just wrong. On so many levels.

Its wrong on so many levels cause they think eating a chicken or pig is inhumane but then they have no problem going to afghanistan where they will be potentially killing others in combat.

 

[Victory2b]

Hello I did a search but was not able to find an answer to my question.  I have been considering applying for the CF but wanted to know more about being a Vegan. From what I was able to find in my searches you can be one for religious reasons but what if it is just a personal decision?

Let me explain I have been a Vegan for about 2 years now and there are several reasons I became one. First is it lines up to Gods original intention for mans diet as outlined in Genesis 1:29. (Even though my diet is biblically based my religion does not require it) Next is for health reasons. (Not because I have a medical condition but because it is just a healthier way of living). In addition to this my diet requires several dietary supplements such as Barleymax, Carrotmax and vitamin B12. These come in powder and/or capsule form that can be easily kept for a long period of time in just about any conditions. I understand that there might be times where being a vegan would not be possible and I would be willing to temporarily adjust my diet a bit but would rather not.

So would I be able to stay a Vegan in the CF? Also would I be able to continue to take the necessary dietary supplements that go along with my diet?

Thank you

 

[AmmoTech90]

You are basing your diet on a 2000+ year old writing that requires you to take modern supplements?  Quick call Daniken, he can write a book about this.

Seriously though, the CF will provide vegi field means, not sure about vegan.  There are no restrictions on eating what you want so long as it does not cause injury.
As far as supplements go, do a search on supplements and the attitude towards them, especially during BMQ.  They are not allowed during BMQ.

 

[DSB]

From my experience I would say that you could make it through.  As long as you are willing to augment your diet you should be fine.  Do not count on always being given a veggie meal.  There will be times were you will have to make due with what you get.  From what I remember of the meals, there are very few vegan IMPs....a lot if the newer Kosher and Halal meal seemed to have cheese.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I put "vegetarian" in the advanced search and got 2 pages of hits......

Now you try,
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search

 

[Sneaky147]

I'm not pro or anti-vegan, but if I were in the field or on a course requiring a higher level of physical activity or stress I'm not sure I'd WANT to be a vegan in the field.  I'm not much of an eater, and never have been, but on my BMQ and everytime I've been in the field I turn into a remorseless eating machine.  Even with all of the eating I do I still lose weight, particularly muscle mass when in the field, especially in the winter.  I can usually count on between 3-5 lbs a week for the first few weeks, and that's packing back everything I'm given.  If I were restricting myself to a vegan diet which would be foods with a much lower fat and calorie content, you'd probably have to eat constantly just to maintain your body. 

I'm not saying that it would not be possible to remain being a vegan in times when your body will make much greater demands on you.  But you most definitely would need to augment your diet further.  I figure in the field I'm ingesting 4000 - 5000 calories a day and I have lost as much as 6 lbs in a week.  Again, winter ex's are the worst as the body's natural furnace burns calories at a tremendous rate just to keep warm. 

Again... I imagine it WOULD be possible to remain a vegan, especially in garrison (no problem at all), but when your body turns on you and demands a lot of fuel, you'd probably need a wheelbarow full of food just to stave off hunger pains. 

 

[xmarcx]

Again... I imagine it WOULD be possible to remain a vegan, especially in garrison (no problem at all), but when your body turns on you and demands a lot of fuel, you'd probably need a wheelbarow full of food just to stave off hunger pains. 

I recently quit being a vegan after almost 5 years. It's alright once you get into a routine/are near home and all your standard food-purchasing locations, but even on a roadtrip you tend to get completely screwed let alone on an operation. I was actually forced to quit when I started training to make sure I could pass the recruiting fit test. Running itself wasn't a problem but I started to get really sick and feel gutted all the time, and I couldn't achieve anywhere near the minimum number of pushups. 4 months of introducing dairy and eggs back into my diet finally let me eat as many calories as I needed to train and gave me a much needed source of protein, and I quickly got up and beyond standard. I'm not saying you couldn't do that as a vegan, but the sheer dedication and obsession with eating  would take would likely eat up all your free time/drive you nuts.

The bigger problem is that you have to plan for the worst if you want to join the CF. I'm not in yet but I almost starved as just a vegetarian in cadets a few times. Since there aren't any vegan Imps (I'm 90% sure, correct me if I'm wrong), and I doubt anyone's going to take the time to make a single vegan haybox, you are going to be in serious trouble the second you're out of garrison, unless you want to find the room to carry an extra $20 a day worth of veggie civvie camp food - and that won't last you very long. Personally, I want to stay vegetarian, but I had to accept when I put my application in that in the Army that means I'd be vegetarian whenever it was my choice, whenever it wouldn't affect the supply situation of my unit, and that if it comes down to it, eating meat is a lesser evil than being malnourished and underperforming mentally which could get people, rather than animals, killed.

 

[DSB]

The two IMPs that I thought were vegan have egg white.   So they really are no vegan IMPs.  You can make due....i ate mac and cheese 3 meals a day for years until the new ones came out.  I would trade bits of the meal, others things mates would give me, I do bring granola bars, dried fruit, powdered soups and such on exs.  The longest Ive been in the field is about two weeks, (the various CACs, JNCO): that duration is pretty easy. 

I did go hungry many times when I first got in, passed out twice before I got with the program. You just adapt, after a bit its second nature.

DSB

 

[Victory2b]

Thanks for all the information.

@ AmmoTech90
You said that supplements are not allowed during BMQ. With the exception of the B12 the other 2 are just powdered organic Barley, Carrots, and alfalfa. It is no different than say eating a salad. As for the B12 I have to take that because I don’t have meat in my diet and the only other place this is found in is dirt and I don’t want to eat that. In rare cases people suffer from neurological disorders without B12 and I really don’t want that to happen. In regards to you question about “a 2000+ year old writing that requires you to take modern supplements?” The reason is because the modern farming industry has reduced the nutritional value of most vegetables found in stores today in favour of size and appearance and I can’t afford to buy 100% organic food. Let me put it this way if I were on the same diet a hundred years ago I would not need to take them. In addition to this most people don’t start on this diet because they have nothing better to do. A lot of people due it because they are suffering from a severe medical condition and have to begin the process of reversing it. After all most people spend there lives filling there body with junk food and it takes a lot of good food to provided the body with what it needs to remove the damage caused by years of neglect.

Sorry for the long winded explanation I was hoping I would not need to go into such a detailed explanation but I do see how it can be confusing especially considering I provided so little information about my diet. I try use the term Vegan lightly because it is not a true representation of my diet but it is the closest easy to understand term I know of.

 

[paracowboy]

So would I be able to stay a Vegan in the CF?

yes. But not necessarily while on your Basic or Trades course.

Also would I be able to continue to take the necessary dietary supplements that go along with my diet?

same answer.

You will have a very difficult time trying to stick to absurd diets while on Exercises or Deployments, as well, no matter what the reason. Moreover, you will be a pain in the ass for your Quartermaster and Kitchen Officer, and they will not like you.

 

[DSB]

yes. But not necessarily while on your Basic or Trades course. same answer.

You will have a very difficult time trying to stick to absurd diets while on Exercises or Deployments, as well, no matter what the reason. Moreover, you will be a pain in the *** for your Quartermaster and Kitchen Officer, and they will not like you.

I'm a strict vegetarian, (I do eat dairy),have been my whole life.  I had a few issues in basic.  All my other trades courses were fine.  Yeah I know I'm a medic but I did a few months on JLC/JNCO, Drv Wheel, OP recuperation, and have been very active with various brigade exs.  No major problems.  QM should have no problems with you, as long as you don't hit them by surprise.  If they get upset about reasonable requests than they need to look at their own professionalism.  The cooks in all the messes I've eaten at have been great.  They willing look for ways to help, ask opinions, and value your input.

DSB

 

[paracowboy]

conversely, the individual in question should be aware that they are just that: an individual, and the QM/CQ/KO staff have to concern themselves with feeding dozens, scores, or hundreds of troops, and extra demands are unwelcome, and possibly detrimental to the efficiency of said crew.

Give your CQ staff plenty of advance notice that you have an eating disorder, and be prepared to sacrifice your dietary prejudices, at least temporarily. IMP-wise, there are vegetarian meals, halal meals, and kosher meals. When you eat fresh rats there are any number of food combinations available.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

Pay attention to your body.  Whatever your morality may say, under intense physical stress your demands will be higher, and your bodies ability to synthesize will be more limited, so specialized diets that have worked for you in the past may land you in MIR our out on your butt.  I've been an industrial first aid attendant in mills and industry for ten years since getting out, and you would not believe what percentage of people I've had on Oxygen awaiting ambulance have been vegans whose diet didn't enable them to respond to periods of high demand.  In the army, high demand is the rule, and spotty supply is the norm, so you could quickly find yourself in a bad situation of your own devising.