All Things Vegetarian/Vegan (merged)

[Strike]

I have an aunt who cannot eat domestic meat because of an obscure allergy.  She has made due with eating the wild variety.  Her family was so upset when they found out what they would be "stuck" eating... ;D

As for the veggie IMPs, we have a tech who eats them when we're on Ex because she also has this same obscure allergy and is also lactose intollerant (can't be stuck with the mac and cheese).  The way they were labelled in the box made them seem like they were also hallal meals.  Pretty nice stuff in them; dried cranberries, raisins, granolla.  We were all pretty jealous.  I want dried cranberries and granolla in my IMP too!!!

 

[aesop081]

  I want dried cranberries and granolla in my IMP too!!!

Strike...you must be from BC  ;D

 

[Manimal]

I see no reason not to eat meat, and sometimes you cant afford to be picky

for me it's not about being picky, i don't eat meat for religious reasons.
i can give you a few other perfect reasons not to eat it too.

i will serve my country, and give my life if need be, all i ask is that my beliefs be respected, and allow me to practice the diet set out for me by those beliefs.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

and we'll let you practice those beliefs overseas as long they don't impede the mission.

 

[larry Strong]

Like I said, if your were there first. If not, no one made you move there. It's like moving in next store to someone established and saying "Hey, I don't like the colour of your house! Get it painted or get the hell out."

Thats like the people who move from the city onto an acerage, then bitch and whine that the farms and the manure etc stink and they end up forcing so many restrictions on the farmers they can barely farm their land.

I did not claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables

 

[Roy Harding]

This may well be the most entertaining thread I've perused in a while.

One question, though - a few pages ago, Britney Spears asked if the meat eaters could come up with factual and authoritative sources to support their food choice.

I don't recall seeing any replies - to be honest, I may have missed it - I tended to skim over the "name calling" bits - although they are sometimes the most amusing.

For the record - I don't have any dogs in this fight, and I'm an omnivore.  BUT I think that a balanced diet, coupled with vigorous exercise makes for a balanced and vigorous human being.  How you "balance" your diet is entirely up to you, none of my business, and no matter the mix you choose, does not constitute a "moral" choice.

Anyway - if I missed something on the "meat eaters" side, please correct me.  Otherwise - can someone comply with Britney's request?

 

[Springroll]

My great grandmother was very strict when it came to her meals. One meal(typically dinner) HAD to have meat in it of some sort then a starch and a veggie.

She is the only proof that I have that meat is not harmful...
she lived until she was 32 days shy of her centennial(passed Nov 21).
The majority of the senior citizens that I have worked with also believe the same as her...and they are living to ripe old ages.

I enjoy my meat and will continue too...nothing like a good steak hot of the Bar-B-Q(tonight was BBQ'ed pork chops!)

 

[Britney Spears]

and no matter the mix you choose, does not constitute a "moral" choice.

If you will refer back to the list of vegetarian terms,

Others might regard the suffering of animals in factory farm conditions as their sole reason for avoiding meat or meat based foods. These people will eat meat or meat products from animals raised under more humane conditions or hunted in the wild. Some of these people incorrectly refer to themselves as vegetarians.

This is the viewpoint that I have the most sympathy for. Choosing to eat meat is not in and of it self immoral, (and it is the natural state of things, after all)  but it is perfectly possible to do so without having to support the meat industry, which, in my opinion and that of many others, is fundementally an "evil" industry. Couple that with the (proven) fact that it is possible to eat a perfectly healthy vegetarian diet(Healthy people don't *NEED* to eat meat), and one can argue that when you,  by choice, support the meat industry, you are indirectly contributing to their destruction of the enviroment and their inadverdent development of new diseases and pathogens like BSE, not to mention the cruelty factor. It's a bit of a tenuous link but not completely without basis. Thus, I think that the net effect of more people converting to veganism/vegetarianism is positive, even if they're not doing it for the right reasons. A diet composed soley of plants and wild game meat would be just as ethical, in this respect.

Then again, I think the same way about many other industries (diamonds come to mind). 

 

[Roy Harding]

If you will refer back to the list of vegetarian terms,

This is the viewpoint that I have the most sympathy for. Choosing to eat meat is not in and of it self immoral, (and it is the natural state of things, after all)  but it is perfectly possible to do so without having to support the meat industry, which, in my opinion and that of many others, is fundementally an "evil" industry. Couple that with the (proven) fact that it is possible to eat a perfectly healthy vegetarian diet(Healthy people don't *NEED* to eat meat), and one can argue that when you,  by choice, support the meat industry, you are indirectly contributing to their destruction of the enviroment and their inadverdent development of new diseases and pathogens like BSE, not to mention the cruelty factor. It's a bit of a tenuous link but not completely without basis. Thus, I think that the net effect of more people converting to veganism/vegetarianism is positive, even if they're not doing it for the right reasons. A diet composed soley of plants and wild game meat would be just as ethical, in this respect.

Then again, I think the same way about many other industries (diamonds come to mind). 

Fair enough, Britney. 

As I said, I don't have any dogs in this fight - I should have added "in my opinion" when I said "does not constitute a "moral" choice", such an addition would have made my (non-existent) opinion of the matter more clear.

 

[larry Strong]

How do you mean an "Evil" Industry? Are we going to feed the trillions on 20 acre farms, I don't see that happening. Sounds like something a city person would say.

 

[larry Strong]

How do you mean an "Evil" Industry? Are we going to feed the trillions on 20 acre farms, I don't see that happening. Sounds like something a city person would say. Where's the proof that BSE comes from large intensive cattle operations. To coin your favorite phrase Brittany "Where's the proof"

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

You just qouted yourself.

 

[larry Strong]

You just qouted yourself.

Ooops, the finger factor, thats what happens when you hunt and peck I quess ;D

 

[Britney Spears]

Where's the proof that BSE comes from large intensive cattle operations.

BSE is spread via the practice of feeding cows the remains of infected cows, yes?

How do you mean an "Evil" Industry?

It's evil because it causes needless enviromental damage, i.e. pollution of ground and river water and the general depletion of water resources, and the nature of CAFOs tend to promote diseased and unsanitary conditions. Both of which pose a substantial health risk to humans. Heavy use of drugs and anti-biotics are not exactly very benign practices either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_animal_feeding_operation

Are we going to feed the trillions on 20 acre farms, I don't see that happening.

Last time I checked, the vast majority of people in the world got along just fine without factory farms. Factory farming is only prevalent in developed nations, where farmers are paid not to grow food, and the meat industry is controlled by coglomorates. I'm not sure what kind of famine you're envisioning if the price of a big mac went up 2x or 3x tomorow, statistically, you're eating too much meat anyway. Just pretend you're in Europe. Worst case scenario, you could become a vegetarian.    Also, using factory farms for the raising of animals like cows for food is an extremely inefficient use of water and land. Although this is also true for cattle and livestock in general, which is why for much of human history, meat was a luxury item. Perhaps one day, if we haven't turned the planet into a glass parking lot yet, there will be enough mouth to feed that factory farms become unsustainable?

Sounds like something a city person would say.

Yeah, I'm a city person, so? The only reason factory farms are not in cities is because they pollute so much and are a blight on the face of the earth.

 

[larry Strong]

BSE is spread via the practice of feeding cows the remains of infected cows, yes?


Thats is one version of what causes BSE    http://www.ithyroid.com/mad_cow_disease.htm
It's evil because it causes needless enviromental damage, i.e. pollution of ground and river water and the general depletion of water resources, and the nature of CAFOs tend to promote diseased and unsanitary conditions. Both of which pose a substantial health risk to humans. Heavy use of drugs and anti-biotics are not exactly very benign practices either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_animal_feeding_operation]

Although I do agree with you here somewhat. But that does not make it evil, we   need to ensure that they become more enviormentaly freindly. With 25% of the world starving (UN Fiqures), and with that number excpected to rise along with population growth that is skyrocketing(again from the UN), in the forseeable future farms are going to have to be more area intensive.

[ Last time I checked, the vast majority of people in the world got along just fine without factory farms. Factory farming is only prevalent in developed nations, where farmers are paid not to grow food, and the meat industry is controlled by coglomorates. I'm not sure what kind of famine you're envisioning if the price of a big mac went up 2x or 3x tomorow, statistically, you're eating too much meat anyway. Just pretend you're in Europe. Worst case scenario, you could become a vegetarian.     Also, using factory farms for the raising of animals like cows for food inefficient use of wais an extremely ter and land. Although this is also true for cattle and livestock in general, which is why for much of human history, meat was a luxury item. Perhaps one day, if we haven't turned the planet into a glass parking lot yet, there will be enough mouth to feed that factory farms become unsustainable? ]


Thats your opinion
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html

Yeah, I'm a city person, so? The only reason factory farms are not in cities is because they pollute so much and are a blight on the face of the earth.

There was no intent to dis your living in a city, I was trying to show the difference in thinking between urban and rural folks. And the answer about factory farms in cities is totaly asinine IMHO.

And as you can see I have not mastered the quote thing yet :

http://www.ithyroid.com/mad_cow_disease.htm

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html

 

[larry Strong]

The second web site actually debunks a few of the pro-vegan arguments that we have seen over the last few pages.

 

[Manimal]

and we'll let you practice those beliefs overseas as long they don't impede the mission.

it's also my belief that when you have a job to do, you don't let anything stand in it's way.
some beliefs are more important then others sometimes!
i also don't believe in killing!
but i don't believe in letting evil people kill good people, therefore it is better to kill an evil person then to let him kill a good one  :threat: :threat: :threat: it's not all black and white, and i don't pretend to make it that way.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

i had an O/C in the GGHG who was Jewish and he told me on his courses he would always get a close to kosher diet as possible. He was Res Officer training course not sure what  level in Gagetown, and by the end of the course every  officer was claiming to be jewish because his rations were always better then the rest.  I had a Jewish driver in HQ COY,  we always let her pick IMPS first so she could get something that  did have pork or other non kosher foods. I know the food was prepared as kosher but we tried out best to make sure she did not get the strange meals with the meat that was not marked as meat....

I do think all veggie meal would be ahrd to come by, on course they might be able to do it some justice but on missions and real operations, not very  likely to have Veggie IMPS or MRES  for that  person.  be prepared to hump extra wieght with you , peanut butter and stuff because you be hungry some nights
just my  opinion

 

[Springroll]

The practice of feeding other animals animal by products is on the way out. They have already begun to stop making dog food this way, and that is why it is very important that when you are out grocery shopping, you get 100% grain fed beef, chicken, pork etc. I ony buy Maple Leaf chicken because they are grain fed, I go to butcher shops for my beef and pork. I do not by the stores "version" ofmeat..YUCK!

 

[Britney Spears]

Thats is one version of what causes BSE�  � http://www.ithyroid.com/mad_cow_disease.htm

It is the generally accepted version.

Although I do agree with you here somewhat. But that does not make it evil, we  need to ensure that they become more enviormentaly freindly. With 25% of the world starving (UN Fiqures), and with that number excpected to rise along with population growth that is skyrocketing(again from the UN), in the forseeable future farms are going to have to be more area intensive.

I don't belive that factory farming, even in developed western nations, is significantly more economical.

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/publications/Briefings%255CART9857.pdf&e=9797

Production cost differences as between factory farming and higher welfare
systems
The widely-held assumption that factory farming is inherently much cheaper than
more humane systems proves in many cases to be false. For some products the onfarm
production costs - as opposed to the price charged by retailers - are only
slightly higher for improved welfare systems as compared with factory farming. In
other cases a more humane system can actually result in lower production costs.

In any case, the pricing of food commodities in the west are so distorted from free market prices by goverment subsidies, that I can't say either way. I'm not sure that the cost of the actual production is even a huge factor in the meat industry.

Again, factory farms are a purely Industrialized world phenomenon. The site you quote does not dispute this. Yes, it's more efficient to graze animals on land that cannot be economically farmed, but that's not factory farming. Simply put, the world is NOT running out of food, people are not starving because they don't have factory farms,and the wasteful form of comsumption, of which factory farming is a factor, that we practice in the west is neither neccesary or sustainable.